Getting a good (guitar) sound across multiple listening devices. Advice?

[RyanH]

I don't know if you use an physical amp and a microphone to record your (electric?) guitar but getting the sound as good on the recording as it sounds live is a known problem/frustration of producers. See this video by Spectre Sound Studios on it, may not be your style of music but it might help:

https://youtu.be/9l6YKjZtzTs?si=Gw9qmvFkmMJl3eU6&t=500

Spoiler alert: the trick appeared to be a mix of a Shure 57 and a Sennheiser 421 microphones recording the guitar sound produced by the Celestion T-75 speaker (known from Marchall amps). This producer of small starting out Metal bands also argues in many vids that the amplifier, guitar pick up element, etc. do not affect the sound that much: it's what actually producees the sound itself in the end that does: the speaker.

I never played (electric) guitar, let alone recorded it. But the guy from Spectre Sound Studio's makes sense to me. More so since he did a blind test of "clean" electric guitars through the same setup. Everybody got wrong which was the Gibson and which the Fender.

I just re-read your post. It's funny, one of my songs has a metal guitar line in it, and just tonight I tried switching the cabinet modeler I was using to what Vox (who makes the Tonelab) calls the UK T75... and it does sound possibly perfect for this song (of course, I say that every other week and then change my mind).

[Linuxmusician01]

I don't know if you use an physical amp and a microphone to record your (electric?) guitar but getting the sound as good on the recording as it sounds live is a known problem/frustration of producers. See this video by Spectre Sound Studios on it, may not be your style of music but it might help:

https://youtu.be/9l6YKjZtzTs?si=Gw9qmvFkmMJl3eU6&t=500

Spoiler alert: the trick appeared to be a mix of a Shure 57 and a Sennheiser 421 microphones recording the guitar sound produced by the Celestion T-75 speaker (known from Marchall amps). This producer of small starting out Metal bands also argues in many vids that the amplifier, guitar pick up element, etc. do not affect the sound that much: it's what actually producees the sound itself in the end that does: the speaker.

I never played (electric) guitar, let alone recorded it. But the guy from Spectre Sound Studio's makes sense to me. More so since he did a blind test of "clean" electric guitars through the same setup. Everybody got wrong which was the Gibson and which the Fender.

Hey thanks for the link, I'll check it out. I realized after my last post that I kinda buried the lede when it comes to my gear. The Vox Tonelab is an amp and cab modeler (I called it a multi-effects pedal, which it is, but the main feature is the modeling). I'm using it direct, but I did think that many of my problems could possibly be solved by putting it through an amp and changing mic positions.

The producer from Spectre Sound Studios keeps on arguing the the (cabinet) speaker makes the difference in sound, not so much the amplifier (or the rest). So your experience in not getting the sound the way you want might be a well known one. You say you hear a difference between your "decent-quality headphones, and then it sounds bad on the monitor speakers". All I know is that in a studio they listen to the monitors with the band to get the right sound. Have you tried recording your guitar and playing it through a good stereo system? Might even sound different, but one's playing is meant to be listened through your average basic stereo system. I always thought that studio monitors are meant to "emulate" that, but I ain't no producer!

Good luck! :

[erlkönig]

You should consider recording always an additional DI signal from your guitar, directly from it's pickup. Then you have all choices concerning reamping, when it comes to mix. I do this now for quite a lot of years, no matter, if i'm tracking a band multitrack from a liveevent on a stage or if it's done in a studio, and no matter of style/genre. You loose nothing, but a few MB of HD space, but you gain everything. E.G. my last livetracking was a kind of Punkrockband, two guitars driven each by 4x12 cabs - but on a stage you can only take on speaker per cab. I'm looking forward reamping that in their rehearsal space and capturing a real 4x12 with a boundary layer microphone 1m away and some direct Fredman micing. You can't do that on stage. Getting the DI signal gives us the possibilty to finetune the amps, use another one, than that on stage, and so many possibilities beyond, that the real hard thing is to decide, what to take for the mix.

If you are using Tonelab, it makes me wonder - i know two of that from the beginning 2000s (one with one pedal, one with two pedals), and both were (and probably still are) really great.

Fricker (the Spectre Sound Guy) knows a lot of recording Metal/Hi Gain stuff, but almost nothing about other genres/styles (and he doesn't claim to do so). So if you are not in his genre, take his entertaining attitude, sometimes he's really funny.

Tube/non tube is a religious thing...

[GMaq]

Hi,

Another angle (probably not a popular one with the Plugin diehards)... I've been recording mic'd amps for many years and I have a few decent Fender tube amps and more available from other musician friends if wanted. With varying success I've used SM57's and Sennheiser e609's both separately and together and getting a good signal is not the problem, it's often incidental amp and speaker noises, cabinet rattles and other stuff that comes with the territory that is annoying. I don't play metal and I'm often looking for a bluesy mild overdrive or a nice rhythm crunch and the Plugins I've experimented with (Guitarix, Audio Assault, MOD Duo) just don't seem to have that intangible quality that comes from an amp for those particular sounds... On a whim I bought a used Strymon Iridium which is essentially a tube amp Fender|Vox|Marshall modeler with cabinet modeling built in and it has been simply incredible, it emulates the rootsy, crunchy stuff arguably as well as my amps and eliminates all the sources of outside noise (transformer hum, cab noise, snare drum rattle). The variety of cabinets and amps make a wide variety of sounds possible and you can feed the iridium your pedals just like any amp and they sound great through it..

Second point, I never EQ my guitar sounds, if you need to EQ you should either adjust your mic type or mic placement or adjust something else in the signal chain (your pickups or tone knobs) when you start EQ-ing every single thing in a mix you open up the possibility for things to sound weird on other listening devices, the best sound you can get flat will always better the final product in the end. Obviously some elements of a mix will always need some EQ due to acoustic limitations (Kick drums as an example) but upper range things like vocals, guitars an acoustic instruments shouldn't need individual EQ's if mic'd or recorded properly.

[erlkönig]

it's often incidental amp and speaker noises, cabinet rattles and other stuff that comes with the territory that is annoying

Yes, that's why i have some gaffa and foam in my mic suitecase

I don't play metal and I'm often looking for a bluesy mild overdrive or a nice rhythm crunch and the Plugins I've experimented with (Guitarix, Audio Assault, MOD Duo) just don't seem to have that intangible quality that comes from an amp for those particular sounds

That's exactly my experience. While speaker simulations work really well, amp sims come to their end, when they are played dynamically. Although they are really of an amazing quality today and can be used without problem on clean or distorted sounds, but not so good between... But probably, that's mainly notable to the player. One more reason for diing.

[Linuxmusician01]

Spectre Sound Studio's keeps on posting video's to demonstrate that the amp doesn't make the difference: the speaker in your cabinet does. As does the placement of the mic (as you would expect). A recent one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxGSd_- ... undStudios

[RyanH]

You should consider recording always an additional DI signal from your guitar, directly from it's pickup. Then you have all choices concerning reamping, when it comes to mix. I do this now for quite a lot of years, no matter, if i'm tracking a band multitrack from a liveevent on a stage or if it's done in a studio, and no matter of style/genre. You loose nothing, but a few MB of HD space, but you gain everything. E.G. my last livetracking was a kind of Punkrockband, two guitars driven each by 4x12 cabs - but on a stage you can only take on speaker per cab. I'm looking forward reamping that in their rehearsal space and capturing a real 4x12 with a boundary layer microphone 1m away and some direct Fredman micing. You can't do that on stage. Getting the DI signal gives us the possibilty to finetune the amps, use another one, than that on stage, and so many possibilities beyond, that the real hard thing is to decide, what to take for the mix.

If you are using Tonelab, it makes me wonder - i know two of that from the beginning 2000s (one with one pedal, one with two pedals), and both were (and probably still are) really great.

Fricker (the Spectre Sound Guy) knows a lot of recording Metal/Hi Gain stuff, but almost nothing about other genres/styles (and he doesn't claim to do so). So if you are not in his genre, take his entertaining attitude, sometimes he's really funny.

Tube/non tube is a religious thing...

Ha, someone else who knows the Tonelab! Yes, I have the single-pedal one. Seeing as both you and @Linuxmusician01 recommended it, I'll check out the Spectre Sound guy. I should learn something useful because I do play punk rock and a bit of metal. I'm working now on something that uses one clean funk guitar and one super-driven one - kind of like what Fishbone was doing in the early 90s, although my music doesn't sound like theirs.

[RyanH]

Hi,

Another angle (probably not a popular one with the Plugin diehards)... I've been recording mic'd amps for many years and I have a few decent Fender tube amps and more available from other musician friends if wanted. With varying success I've used SM57's and Sennheiser e609's both separately and together and getting a good signal is not the problem, it's often incidental amp and speaker noises, cabinet rattles and other stuff that comes with the territory that is annoying. I don't play metal and I'm often looking for a bluesy mild overdrive or a nice rhythm crunch and the Plugins I've experimented with (Guitarix, Audio Assault, MOD Duo) just don't seem to have that intangible quality that comes from an amp for those particular sounds... On a whim I bought a used Strymon Iridium which is essentially a tube amp Fender|Vox|Marshall modeler with cabinet modeling built in and it has been simply incredible, it emulates the rootsy, crunchy stuff arguably as well as my amps and eliminates all the sources of outside noise (transformer hum, cab noise, snare drum rattle). The variety of cabinets and amps make a wide variety of sounds possible and you can feed the iridium your pedals just like any amp and they sound great through it..

Second point, I never EQ my guitar sounds, if you need to EQ you should either adjust your mic type or mic placement or adjust something else in the signal chain (your pickups or tone knobs) when you start EQ-ing every single thing in a mix you open up the possibility for things to sound weird on other listening devices, the best sound you can get flat will always better the final product in the end. Obviously some elements of a mix will always need some EQ due to acoustic limitations (Kick drums as an example) but upper range things like vocals, guitars an acoustic instruments shouldn't need individual EQ's if mic'd or recorded properly.

Thanks, GMaq. I think I saw (and bookmarked) some comments you made in a thread re: mics here on the site. I did try feeding the Tonelab into an amp and micing it, but was using a non-directional condenser mic (which is all I had). It did actually sound pretty good, but I could hear my picking because of the nature of the mic and a small room so abandoned this. The Tonelab has great emulation but I can't mimic the ability to move the mic towards or away from the centre of a speaker, so I've been relying on the Tonelab and my guitar (and now an Xotic wah pedal I just bought) to balance the tones. What seems to be sounding good (fingers crossed), which I've discovered since my original post, is to use my new wah pedal through the Tonelab's:

-AC30TB amp, with gain set low and tone knobs at 12 o'clock and top cut slightly
-AC30 Cab
-"Metal Dist" pedal for heavy parts (I think this might emulate the Metal Zone pedal - seems to result in a much smoother distortion than using a high-gain amp emulation, which introduces heaps of uncontrollable noise; it also sounds a lot like the Fishbone style I mentioned in my previous reply... I always wondered if they used Metal Zone pedals)

Thanks for the tip about EQing the guitar. I like your advice because I'm not very good at EQing anyway. I pretty much use it to cut out some low end to make room for the bass. But your advice is good because I know that, once I'm next at the mixing stage, I would inevitably torture myself into oblivion trying to EQ everything right.

[RyanH]

The producer from Spectre Sound Studios keeps on arguing the the (cabinet) speaker makes the difference in sound, not so much the amplifier (or the rest). So your experience in not getting the sound the way you want might be a well known one. You say you hear a difference between your "decent-quality headphones, and then it sounds bad on the monitor speakers". All I know is that in a studio they listen to the monitors with the band to get the right sound. Have you tried recording your guitar and playing it through a good stereo system? Might even sound different, but one's playing is meant to be listened through your average basic stereo system. I always thought that studio monitors are meant to "emulate" that, but I ain't no producer!

Good luck! :

I do find everything seems to sound great on the monitor speakers - which is great while I'm listening to it but kind of a problem when it comes to generalizing to other speakers, headphones, etc. Also I don't live alone and usually work in the middle of the night, so speakers aren't always an option.

I worked on the speakers last night and it sounded great. Fingers crossed that this translates well to the headphones, which I plan to check shortly...

Thanks!

[erlkönig]

You could try a sound diffraction sphere to change the pattern of your mic slightly.
https://www.neumann.com/en_en/produkte/ ... sbk-130-a/
I remember another technique, where a wooden sphere of about 5cm in diameter is placed a few cms in front of your mic (yes, 0°) to get a better effect of pattern-change (although you don't really change the polar pattern of the capsule), but i don't remember on which pattern type that was used. If i find some information on this, i will post it here.

But in the end: a cabsimulation is a really good choice today.

[Linuxmusician01]

I do find everything seems to sound great on the monitor speakers - which is great while I'm listening to it but kind of a problem when it comes to generalizing to other speakers, headphones, etc. Also I don't live alone and usually work in the middle of the night, so speakers aren't always an option.

I worked on the speakers last night and it sounded great. Fingers crossed that this translates well to the headphones, which I plan to check shortly...

Thanks!

Maybe you can try different headphones instead of different monitors... They say that the Audio-Technica ATH-M20X (only € 60!) are pretty good (there's a bluetooth variant of it too, dunno if that sounds worse). If I remember correctly the Spectre Sound Studios producer said they were OK or it was some other Youtuber...

Good luck!

[novalix]

Hi,

i would think the reference listening in a car meme gets a little overstretched at times. The main reason why it came up was that this was the place (other than the studio itself) where mixers and engineers in the olden times listened to music with the surplus of being in a constant listening position. The "hifiness" of the the sound system didn't play a role at all. It was much more the other way around. The restrictions of the playback system and the noise made for a reference situation where one had a means to judge how a certain sound cuts through or fails to do so.

That said, the adequate reference listening takes place where you listen regularly.

There are some little helper tools like monitoring3 by Airwindows that can give you some hints of how the sound translates on other (usually restricted) systems. Take it with a grain of salt, though.

[RyanH]

You could try a sound diffraction sphere to change the pattern of your mic slightly.
https://www.neumann.com/en_en/produkte/ ... sbk-130-a/
I remember another technique, where a wooden sphere of about 5cm in diameter is placed a few cms in front of your mic (yes, 0°) to get a better effect of pattern-change (although you don't really change the polar pattern of the capsule), but i don't remember on which pattern type that was used. If i find some information on this, i will post it here.

But in the end: a cabsimulation is a really good choice today.

Wow, that sounds pretty scifi! Right now I'm not using a mic, just direct from guitar to a new wah pedal to the Vox Tonelab to the interface. I'll definitely keep this in mind for if I get into micing... which I would like to get into one day.

[RyanH]

Maybe you can try different headphones instead of different monitors... They say that the Audio-Technica ATH-M20X (only € 60!) are pretty good (there's a bluetooth variant of it too, dunno if that sounds worse). If I remember correctly the Spectre Sound Studios producer said they were OK or it was some other Youtuber...

Good luck!

Haha, you know what? I think I've gone back to my original method (although I hope saying that doesn't jinx it!). I was originally using my wired iPhone earbuds as the primary listening tool and then going on to another pair of earbuds and my speakers. I realized that these iPhone earbuds seem to reveal the widest range of frequencies, most importantly any that sound bad. For example, my decent-sounding AKG headphones didn't reveal to me that the high end was quite piercing.

So I think, for now, I'm going to start with the iBuds when I'm first selecting my sounds and then move on to the others. (The earbuds have a really short cable so aren't that practical to work with for long periods of time.)

Thanks for the luck... I most definitely need it!

[RyanH]

Hi,

i would think the reference listening in a car meme gets a little overstretched at times. The main reason why it came up was that this was the place (other than the studio itself) where mixers and engineers in the olden times listened to music with the surplus of being in a constant listening position. The "hifiness" of the the sound system didn't play a role at all. It was much more the other way around. The restrictions of the playback system and the noise made for a reference situation where one had a means to judge how a certain sound cuts through or fails to do so.

That said, the adequate reference listening takes place where you listen regularly.

There are some little helper tools like monitoring3 by Airwindows that can give you some hints of how the sound translates on other (usually restricted) systems. Take it with a grain of salt, though.

Thanks, I'll have to look into monitoring3. I did try an earlier mix of this one song on someone else's car stereo, and it revealed to me some flaws in the mix that I didn't hear at home. Especially with the left-right balance, as in the car you're sitting much closer to one speaker than another.