Ave Maria {Gounod} chords confusion (I'm always confused))

[D-Tuned]

To make a short story long:

Many years ago in another life I came upon a Nana Mouskouri rendition of Ave Maria on one of my Vinyl LP's.

The mp3 made from it made me happy for decades! I neither knew nor cared what key it was in or any of that.

Much later I decided that I wanted to learn it and had some help in making a midi file to be the basis for a backing track. Didn't try it too often because I thought it was NOT an easy piece. Never even noticed that the midi was in A-major (I had always thought it was in the original key).

I got curious and fed the original mp3 to a web tool and IT says it's in E-major.

Some well meaning soul on the net told me that the Mouskouri version was in Ab-major so I went looking.

@ these links I found 3 61bpm Mouskouri versions (presumably all Gounod and all the same number of bars) in Ab-major but not two of them show the same chords (when I click on "overview")!

https://chordify.net/chords/nana-mousko ... a-2-chords
https://chordify.net/chords/nana-mousko ... a-5-chords
https://chordify.net/chords/nana-mousko ... Q--LzoIEbM

Now I'm so screwed up I don't even know what question to ask. I like the original, I think I want to learn it in Ab, but where are the chords for it?

Addendum:

A little more searching coughed up my original (so called #1 version),
the same key-finder spit THIS out as not E but Eb! The strong base
came out very well in my midi file (4/4 & 64 bpm)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckQC7_ywFb4

The so called #2 version is also Eb
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afc6v2bozEc

Addendum2:

The #1 (ckQC7_ywFb4) version IS what I want, but every key-finding
utility gives it a different key: A, Am, B ... The midi file has no key sig,
so here's the lead staff from it with accidentals, I should be able to nail the
key from the lead track, no? I mean any key change WOULD change the lead?
This is what I transposed to Ab in Rosegarden and it ended up not sounding
too good. Meanwhile I figured out that the reason I did not like the original
one is that it was a rushed up production. I made a new recording using this
midi and it sounds not bad, whatever key it's in.

lead-Screenshot_2024-01-10_22-56-38.png (85.59 KiB) Viewed 54353 times

x.mp3

(234.94 KiB) Downloaded 55 times

[luciorgomes]

Try the original: Bb
https://musescore.com/mooing/ave-maria

[D-Tuned]

Try the original: Bb
https://musescore.com/mooing/ave-maria

It's very nice but it's not the Gounod version. That Mouskouri woman made something like a dozen versions in at least as many keys, mostly Schubert AFAIK.

My midi file is based on that 1st rendition (I haven't really differentiated it from the 2nd one yet). It sounded NOT BAD in the A-major it was done in but when I transposed it with Rosegarden to Ab it acquired 3 or 4 really weird bars. If I had tons of money I'd get a midi-guru to work it over good in both Ab and Eb with all the appropriate chords. As it is, in addition to digging up the best chords, I'll just have to chop away at whatever sounds too strange

[D-Tuned]

With Rosegarden I tried the lead track in A-major notation and it doesn't show too many accidentals so maybe the key is A after all. The chords used are 'approximately': E A6/E B F# E G# E G# Gbm B9\F# Dbm7\Ab Gb B\F# Gbdim7 E\G# Gbm6 Amaj7\G# Edim7 Em\G Gbdim E\G# E9s4 B\F# E\G# E9s4 E9s4 Abdim A Es2 E Abdim Amaj7\G# Edim7 Em\G Gbdim E\G# E9s4 B\F# E\G# E9s4 E9s4 Abdim A Emaj7s2 E. Rosegarden lyrics editor truncates them no matter what I do. Errors aside this is what the lead and the chords look like:

using###A-notation-Lead-Chords.png (161.28 KiB) Viewed 53250 times

[BobUnderwood]

Ahhh, D-Tuned. You're still making things harder than they need to be. I suggested in another thread months ago you learn to use Roman numerals to define chord progressions. Among other uses (ease of transposition) it will vividly illustrate that while changing key means all of the chord and melody notes change, the relationships between those chords and notes do not change.

[D-Tuned]

Ahhh, D-Tuned. You're still making things harder than they need to be. I suggested in another thread months ago you learn to use Roman numerals to define chord progressions. Among other uses (ease of transposition) it will vividly illustrate that while changing key means all of the chord and melody notes change, the relationships between those chords and notes do not change.

To assign roman numerals I first need to know the key. I tried to match the chords that ARE in the midi, a B-major for example, but I'm not at a level that lets me say 'well easy, this B-major is the roman ii (m) because the only B in A is the Bm'. Another chord in the midi is a Gbdim (F#dim) and the only key I see one of those in is G or Em ...etc. The midi sounds good as is, but if I knew the key then I would try a few other chords only if the result sounded even better. Normally I wouldn't bother with too many chord refinements but for this piece I though of MAYBE trying 4 guitar tracks: the chords, the arpeggiated chords, a few extras, and the lead. It was on spec for building the first two tracks that wanted to make the first two as good as I could. If I go just for the lead, my usual aim, then I just let the backing track do everything else.

[BobUnderwood]

After listening to #1 while looking at lead-screenshot....png and using###....png it's obvious to me that the melody (and the chords) on both charts are in E.

The key defines the root of the I chord - the tonal center.

One trick if you're having trouble finding the key: listen to/look at the last chord. lt's more often than not the I chord (lousy typeface for roman numerals).

The dim chord is the VII chord in diatonic harmony - and any of its notes can be its root.

EDIT: changed Eb to E natural.

`

[D-Tuned]

After listening to #1 while looking at lead-screenshot....png and using###....png it's obvious to me that the melody (and the chords) on both charts are in E.

The key defines the root of the I chord - the tonal center.

One trick if you're having trouble finding the key: listen to/look at the last chord. lt's more often than not the I chord (lousy typeface for roman numerals).

The dim chord is the VII chord in diatonic harmony - and any of its notes can be its root.

EDIT: changed Eb to E natural.

Thanks, I'll work with that for now.

[D-Tuned]

Trying to begin with basics in E major I got the triads from

https://chordseasy.com/song/33051/ave-maria/?s=1

the checkbox for "simple" gives simplified chords (triads).

Next I combined the lead and these triads in a midi.
Problem is, it sounds like hsit!

I want to make this song my 'religious' thing for 2024
but I'm off to a slow start and I don't want to get past
the triads level with this track until I have it just right.

I uploaded the sheet but can't insert it into the text,
the midi it seems cannot be uploaded. Soooo, 2 files
are @ https://transfiles.ru/j4bnk

the midi of the 2 tracks and the sheet

I want to make it sound perfect, but don't know why it isn't.

[merlyn]

I thought the Gounod version had Bach's Prelude No.1 in C major as the backing.

[D-Tuned]

I thought the Gounod version had Bach's Prelude No.1 in C major as the backing.

Remember when the Titan went down to the Titanic? Notions of how far above my head Bach's Prelude #1 is. Are you implying something about what chords to try?

[BobUnderwood]

D-Tuned,

The websites/programs you're using to harmonize that melody are doing a terrible job. I'd do it by ear.

I think merlyn's right.

Bach-Prelude-BWV-846-Condensed.pdf

(26.71 KiB) Downloaded 54 times

[merlyn]

Is this the Nana Mouskouri recording in question?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afc6v2bozEc

Nana Mouskouri does have a beautiful voice. That version is in Eb, and the piano arpeggios are Prelude No. 1 transposed to Eb.

[D-Tuned]

Is this the Nana Mouskouri recording in question?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afc6v2bozEc

Not exactly, THAT was her #2 Gounod version recorded after the #1.
(I don't know the differences, I only listened to this #2 once)

Nana Mouskouri does have a beautiful voice. That version is in Eb, and the piano arpeggios are Prelude No. 1 transposed to Eb.

She and Barbara Streissand, maybe a very few more.

Thanks, if you're right that would be a huge help. I'm not a fan of classics except for the one I like most (Pachelbel's Canon).

Her #1 was:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckQC7_ywFb4

and THIS is the one I'm trying to nail down now a touch shorter, in fact I just spent most of the day yesterday busting my balls drafting the entire scrolling staff for a kdenlive jamming video in E (not in Eb)! In this I'm using my midi file strings track and trying to identify the chords & triads. Because these chords sound from reasonably good to very good I want them to be a basis BUT the reason I started the topic is wider

1 - as above, to ID the existing chords & triads & etc. in the image below
2 - find the exact key of her #1
2 - find & insert the best sounding triads for it from wherever
4 - find & insert the best sounding chords for it from wherever

scrollstaff4kdenlive.png (181.94 KiB) Viewed 46245 times

[merlyn]

Of course I'm right.