80% of Artists on Spotify won't get paid anything.

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glowrak guy
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Re: 80% of Artists on Spotify won't get paid anything.

Post by glowrak guy »

cross-posted, but relevant:

Rick Beato, a producer and educator, with a successful youtube channel, discusses the 'getting heard' issue quite often,
the gist of his findings, gleaned from a host of industry insiders, famous music icons, and commoners on the rise, is roughly this:
The submitter must be active and current, and post on all the biggest social media platforms, providing
consistent and quality info, updates, and content, which must point to a well presented website,
where the content and any salable items are super easy to access.

It is the interplay of social media members finding and enjoying your productions, who begin cross-referencing
what they like, that builds the view totals on each of those systems: X, Instagram, Meta/Facebook, Youtube, toktik etc
whose members then can rely on your shiny friendly updated website.

...and if one uses Distrokid* as a distributor, they release to Spotify and a couple dozen other streaming sites
and name-brand shops, where your releases will be available, awaiting discovery. Spotify provide a range of methods
for members to self promote. If your music competes well, it will trickle out to the social media, and the cross-referencing
might take hold, with views/listens accumulating.

*All this takes time, some money, and likely some teamwork, and the willingness to relentlessly self-promote.
As a promoter, kindness, respect, and a sincere interest in people, will be fundamental. Having a business card,
with links, and CD's to hand out, is good locally. Many people have CD players in their cars, even if streaming-only
at home. Mi dos centavos :wink:
Cheers

Last edited by glowrak guy on Sat Oct 28, 2023 1:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 80% of Artists on Spotify won't get paid anything.

Post by glowrak guy »

People mention the evil capitalism, when large teams of smart people charge cheesburger and coffee money
to allow us to do things we would never ever be able to accomplish without their ingenuity and cheapo prices :roll:

If Distrokid, Spotify, and Youtube Premium etc are too expensive for what you get, so be it, I've canceled some monthly-billed things
recently myself. At least in capatalist societies, one is free to work as many hours as desired, to afford extras, and build for the future.
Rumour has it the future could drag on for years :shock: :wink:

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Re: 80% of Artists on Spotify won't get paid anything.

Post by Largos »

tavasti wrote: Fri Oct 27, 2023 2:32 pm

Sure, tiktok and other videos are why his song got so popular. But there were other people doing those videos, he did not need to do anything.

If you really think some random guy can end up on billions of Chinese tik tok videos just chilling in his bedroom with no effort, then I have a bridge to sell you. glowrak guy has referenced Rick Beato. There are also many other people with experience on youtube now offering advice and not one will say "put in no effort and if you're lucky you'll get millions of views" because it doesn't work like that and if it did then why isn't everyone doing it?

glowrak guy wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2023 1:25 am

People mention the evil capitalism, when large teams of smart people charge cheesburger and coffee money
to allow us to do things we would never ever be able to accomplish without their ingenuity and cheapo prices :roll:

If Distrokid, Spotify, and Youtube Premium etc are too expensive for what you get, so be it, I've canceled some monthly-billed things
recently myself. At least in capatalist societies, one is free to work as many hours as desired, to afford extras, and build for the future.
Rumour has it the future could drag on for years :shock: :wink:

It's not that these services are expensive, it's that they are not worth paying for. You give Youtube Premium and Spotify your money and the uses of it are opaque. They get the money and they pay little to nothing to the people you are getting the entertainment from. Not only that but they are actively rigging it so their favourite people and investors get the most exposure and money. It's ridiculous to defend these people.

As for distrokid et al, why do they exist? You pay that money per year because multi million dollar tech companies don't have their own upload tools and royalty distribution tools on their site? Really?

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Re: 80% of Artists on Spotify won't get paid anything.

Post by merlyn »

glowrak guy wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2023 1:25 am

People mention the evil capitalism, when large teams of smart people charge cheesburger and coffee money
to allow us to do things we would never ever be able to accomplish without their ingenuity and cheapo prices :roll:

I've noticed you're pretty quick to defend ... whatever it is you're defending. Evil capitalism, eh? If it was capitalism as described in The Wealth Of Nations then the system wouldn't be as bad as it is. We're well beyond capitalism and into kleptocracy -- government by thieves.

It's perhaps not that well known that the book Adam Smith wrote before The Wealth Of Nations was On Moral Sentiment. Here Smith describes a society where morality guides behaviour. If you've even glanced at an economics textbook then you'll know that the market is amoral. CEOs don't have to be encumbered with trifles like morality in the pursuit of profit.

Consider this -- the world is going to shit but we can still get an Amazon Prime delivery the next day.

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Re: 80% of Artists on Spotify won't get paid anything.

Post by tavasti »

Largos wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2023 1:00 pm
tavasti wrote: Fri Oct 27, 2023 2:32 pm

Sure, tiktok and other videos are why his song got so popular. But there were other people doing those videos, he did not need to do anything.

If you really think some random guy can end up on billions of Chinese tik tok videos just chilling in his bedroom with no effort, then I have a bridge to sell you. glowrak guy has referenced Rick Beato. There are also many other people with experience on youtube now offering advice and not one will say "put in no effort and if you're lucky you'll get millions of views" because it doesn't work like that and if it did then why isn't everyone doing it?

1) I did not say 'without effort', he did music. 42 hours 48 minutes work for that hit song. Not bad for such hit!
2) He had success but it does not mean everybody will have. There is most likely millions of those who try to do the same. Janji started to make music 2013, and 2015 he made such a big hit. Song is used in 4.1 million youtube videos.

Here is story about him and his music. Most likely you need to learn language or use some crappy translator https://www.is.fi/viihde/art-2000009024303.html

So it can be done, it is done. But that does not mean that happens to everybody, and definitely it won't happen to me.

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Re: 80% of Artists on Spotify won't get paid anything.

Post by Largos »

This guy does no marketing, says the press interview... The hours were what he said to make the song. He got success because he hooked up with the NCS and his songs got put in millions of videos, nothing to do with Spotify. It's a great advert for relinquishing copyright to get exposure.

I'll say it clearer, if you upload on spotify/bandcamp/any other platform and do nothing else, you will never get anywhere. If you're fine doing that, whatever but to be implying artists like Janji are getting hundreds of millions of views doing the same as you is absurd.

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Re: 80% of Artists on Spotify won't get paid anything.

Post by glowrak guy »

merlyn wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2023 1:48 pm

...Consider this -- the world is going to shit but we can still get an Amazon Prime delivery the next day.

That's very true, but the brown struff would just be deeper if you paid Fed-X or waited on the U.S. Postal Service :wink:
The USA is broke. By $$$trillions$$$ of dollars. Majority of people have no savings, and many are in severe debt. But still,
nobody is fleeing South Beach in a desparate attempt to reach Cuba. No massive caravans heading from L.A. to Venezuela

While I'm not a Bezos fan, he thought up a plan to get people what they want, cheaper and faster than the competition.
using some basic principals. Congrats. Bill Gates thought colored sizeable rectangles were better at presenting data to morons
than green-screen terminals. More congrats. But there won't be any U-haul trucks getting through the pearly-gates up yonder :wink:

People are free to vote with their wallet and feet. Don't like someones prices? Walk away. Don't like invasive government?
When the lease is up, or the house sells, hop in the moving van and go where there is more freedom. California and New York
are bleeding citizens, and it's contagious.
Cheers

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Re: 80% of Artists on Spotify won't get paid anything.

Post by glowrak guy »

Largos wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2023 1:00 pm

As for distrokid et al, why do they exist? You pay that money per year because multi million dollar tech companies don't have their own upload tools and royalty distribution tools on their site? Really?

No, I pay them a mere pittance to do things I want done, that I'm incapable of doing. If someone provides me great service, or loyal service,
is kind and respectful, or maybe appears to be having a really bad day, I can point them to some of my music, but also, they'll likely see other musical offerings en-route, which they may greatly prefer. Fine by me! Sometimes just showing a little interest in people's situations helps. Most people I chat with, have never heard of BandCamp. I tell them it's a notch below Taylor Swift territory, and they laugh, and sometimes they even make the click :wink:
Cheers

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Re: 80% of Artists on Spotify won't get paid anything.

Post by merlyn »

glowrak guy wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2023 7:56 am
merlyn wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2023 1:48 pm

...Consider this -- the world is going to shit but we can still get an Amazon Prime delivery the next day.

... While I'm not a Bezos fan, he thought up a plan to get people what they want, cheaper and faster than the competition.
using some basic principals. Congrats. ...

You see, that is where you're going wrong. Amazon is a monopoly, and that goes against the principles of the free market. The kleptocracy is that the government allows monopolies like Facebook, Amazon and Google to continue. Where is the competition that we hear so much about? Competition leads to inovation apparently, and all the other great benefits of the free market. It's not a free market.

I would imagine you'll blame government for that, and want deregulation. Corporations need some laws, like contract law -- they like that -- and copyright law. Corporations like copyright law. So when corporations talk about deregulation they mean they want laws that they like, which they're pretty much getting at the moment. Look at how many employees of Goldman Sachs end up in government.

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Re: 80% of Artists on Spotify won't get paid anything.

Post by novalix »

Karl Marx wrote:

For sure it is the Will of the capitalist to take, what is to be taken. Our concern is not to spin yarns about his Will, but to investigate his power, the barriers of this power and the particular nature of those barriers.

:mrgreen:

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Re: 80% of Artists on Spotify won't get paid anything.

Post by glowrak guy »

merlyn wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2023 1:14 pm

You see, that is where you're going wrong. Amazon is a monopoly, and that goes against the principles of the free market. The kleptocracy is that the government allows monopolies like Facebook, Amazon and Google to continue.

That's absurd. There are dozens of delivery businesses in my area, from courier to industrial size, not counting UPS, Fed-X, the US Mail,
and sundry e-commerce outlets. All the grocery stores and eateries here have delivery services. Most big-box stores deliver for a price.
There is no government mandate or private need to buy from Amazon. I've only used them 3 or 4 time in the last 10 years, voluntarily,
when it was to my advantage. Amazon (and it's competitors) exist in a free market because the U.S. Constitution protects the owners from a government or criminal takeover.

Also, in that wii little market known as China, Amazon is dwarfed by alibaba, and dominated by four other competitors.

You mistake being the most popular, the best, or most cost-effective, with being a monopoly.
Taylor Swift has no monopoly, but is smart, always learning, managing PR, even going back and improving early music releases.
Google also learns, adapts, and adds services, because they also have ...wait for it.....competitors!
Even linux, the internet backbone, with code in the android hoardes, the macBSD hoardes, the unseen hoardes of embedded linux,
and many dozens of distros, has competition. The drones still loves them some windoze 11 :wink:

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Re: 80% of Artists on Spotify won't get paid anything.

Post by merlyn »

glowrak guy wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2023 8:13 pm
merlyn wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2023 1:14 pm

You see, that is where you're going wrong. Amazon is a monopoly, and that goes against the principles of the free market. The kleptocracy is that the government allows monopolies like Facebook, Amazon and Google to continue.

... That's absurd. ...

You're quite right, it is absurd. It's also true.

I don't think defending Universal Music Group is a good look, but if you want to, knock yourself out.

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Re: 80% of Artists on Spotify won't get paid anything.

Post by sunrat »

glowrak guy wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2023 8:13 pm

Taylor Swift has no monopoly, but is smart, always learning, managing PR, even going back and improving early music releases.

Her motivation to re-record and release her old albums was not primarily to improve them, but because some capitalist arsehole bought the rights to her original recordings without her approval.

I don't have particular issue with the concept of fair trading to make money in the capitalist sense. It's gotten out of hand though so wealth inequality sees 1% of people own half the world's wealth and the gap is widening exponentially. Common people with full-time jobs can't afford rent and food. It makes me sad and wish for systemic change but I'm pessimistic about whether that will happen.

Some poignant reading:
https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/conten ... elon-musk/
https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases ... -two-years

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Re: 80% of Artists on Spotify won't get paid anything.

Post by tavasti »

For claim 'spotify does not pay enough for artists' here is some calculations. Assuming claim is about how things were better earlier, so lets compare to CD sale. At least my understanding is that digital album or song sale has never been big thing, and there is reasons for this: copying plain mp3 files is too easy so labels don't want to do it, and with DRM most people don't want to buy, so there is no solution for it. So I feel physical album or streaming are only options that have ever been mainstream.

If artist is performer, producer and writer, they will get 13.3% from physical album (source: https://bandzoogle.com/blog/record-sale ... e-money-go ) and looks like CDs cost now like 20€. So artist would get 2.66€/cd. Sure, this is optimistic scenario where artist is also producer in case of releasing with label, but used this to maximize income for artist.

Average spotify user listens 120 minutes/day (source: https://www.businessofapps.com/data/spotify-statistics/ ) and lets assume average song lenght is 5 minutes (most likely less), meaning 24 songs streamed every day, 8760 annually. With 0.3 cents/song, that would mean 26€. and if talking about indipendent artist self releasing, they would get 90%, meaning 23.65€.

Combining those numbers, to give same income to artists that would mean average spotify user would buy 8.9 CDs annually. And for our 5 person household that would be 44 CDs every year. And I have to say that is not realism at least for our household.

In reality, CD sales per person are much less. And in spotify at least I listen much marginal artists which would never get any CD sold for me. So only who will get less money is big artists (and their labels!) which album I might potentially buy?

Comments, where are these calculations or assumptions are mislead? Or feel free to show your own calculations which present situation for big masses.

Edit: updated numbers to 0.3c/stream calculations

Last edited by tavasti on Mon Oct 30, 2023 9:59 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: 80% of Artists on Spotify won't get paid anything.

Post by glowrak guy »

sunrat wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2023 9:47 pm
glowrak guy wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2023 8:13 pm

Taylor Swift has no monopoly, but is smart, always learning, managing PR, even going back and improving early music releases.

Her motivation to re-record and release her old albums was not primarily to improve them, but because some capitalist arsehole bought the rights to her original recordings without her approval.

I don't have particular issue with the concept of fair trading to make money in the capitalist sense. It's gotten out of hand though so wealth inequality sees 1% of people own half the world's wealth and the gap is widening exponentially. Common people with full-time jobs can't afford rent and food. It makes me sad and wish for systemic change but I'm pessimistic about whether that will happen.

Some poignant reading:
https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/conten ... elon-musk/
https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases ... -two-years

She did approve sales by way of her managment team. Made good money, when basically just a kid. Got smarter and wealthier year by year,
recognized the arseholes, and bought back her rights, knowing there was an extended market now, and began improving the old music to approach her current standards. To make money. More power to her.

People wrap themselves in slogans like 'income inequality', playing the victim card, when it's far more fun to attack the life circumstances
with hard work and smart choices. In USA, one gets ahead by working far more than 40 hours a week, living beneath your means, paying off interest charging accounts, putting money where it grows, staying out of restaurants and drive-through's, and actually cooking your own meals instead of feeding from processed package food. Helps for like-minded singles to team up, cutting the biggest cost of rent/lease. Sometimes one needs to move from a high-tax/high-regulation state, where cost of living is crazy high (San Francisco, anyone?) to a more conservative worker-friendly state. Nashville Tennesee is growing, and there a lot of musicians with paychecks. (I don't even know what Taylor Swift looks like, and don't know any of her songs, but I've got a few ballads she could probably do quite well with.)
Cheers

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