trying to cover jam on it newclues

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Gps
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trying to cover jam on it newclues

Post by Gps »

Lets start with the track.

The normal and the instrumental version.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPtpPd2QEPw

Genre is Electro funk, but this track it also considered one of the first hip hop tracks.
( this track is older though, then the word Hip Hop :mrgreen: )

When this track was recorded, there was no midi yet. :shock:
They did have an 808 as we can hear.
The bassline originally should have come from a 303, but they had forgotten to bring the 303 along.
So for the recording a bass players played the bassline.

I have most parts, but that sound at 1.21 and 4.54 is doing my head in.

I already tried vlc and lowered the playing speed of the you tube vid, but that did not help.

I am using LMMS on openSUSE leap if that matters. Already tried a few pattern in the piano roll ( like c3 c4 c3 c4 1/16 notes ) but I can even get it close.
bpm seems to be 117.
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Re: trying to cover jam on it newclues

Post by rghvdberg »

Install Sonic visualiser.
Load mp3
Hit m key.
Look at bottom pane ;-)
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Re: trying to cover jam on it newclues

Post by Gps »

beck wrote:As far as i know the TB-303 comes back in the TR-606.
TR-606 is both available in LMMS as in Hydrogen.
Hydrogen site wrote:Roland TR-606
Roland TR-606 Drumatix is a classic analog beatbox made in around 1983 to compliment the TB-303 Bassline synthesizer. Sounds recorded by Steve Howell (Hollow Sun), Hydrogen kit created by Artemiy Pavlov (Sineshine).
And 808 and 909 are great for 80's to millenium music.
Did not know that, I did recently learn that the TB 303 is used in acid.
I did know those samples are already in lmms, the 808 rim shot and cow bell are used too in jam on it.

That typical acid sound is the 303

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Enyny7vXGi4

I am gonna look for that Hydrogen kit.

I have found a few 303 vst, but have not tried them. So cant tell if they work on Linux with wine.
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Re: trying to cover jam on it newclues

Post by Gps »

rghvdberg wrote:Install Sonic visualiser.
Load mp3
Hit m key.
Look at bottom pane ;-)
That looks interesting, will give it a try, thank you.

For others on opensuse:

http://software.opensuse.org/package/so ... visualiser
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Re: trying to cover jam on it newclues

Post by rghvdberg »

To find if/which samples are used I a song check out whosampled.com
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Re: trying to cover jam on it newclues

Post by Gps »

beck wrote:
Gps wrote:That typical acid sound is the 303
606, 808 and 909 are quite common used in acid/techno/newwave/rave/etc. too. The 808 was very common within rave/newbeat/acid.
And perhaps you can do some with the hydrogen MC-307 Techno1 kit.

I would suggest to load all of these. You don't have to load a full pack but you can load individual instruments out of all of them, both in LMMS as in Hydrogen. So for instance, the bass from the 808, hyhat from the 606, and *** from the 909.

I LOVE those TR boxes. There great for all kinds of beat from the 80's up to nowaday's sounds like to rap/r&b/hiphop (808).
Sometimes when jamming for practice i quickly reproduces 80% of the sounds of famous hits like from Eminem and so. I then only miss the other 20%, the specialized extra sounds (mostly the samples), of which there too are lots of those to be found in LMMS.
But the basic beat can be reproduced far within an hour. 8)
I will get those packs.When I started seriously making music I did not understand why people downloaded so many drums packs.
These days it seems I can never have enough drum sound samples. :mrgreen:
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Re: trying to cover jam on it newclues

Post by Gps »

beck wrote:
rghvdberg wrote:To find if/which samples are used I a song check out whosampled.com
Learnfull link rghvdberg. :thumbup:
Gonna studie that for sure.

Although i prefer to make my own sounds and samples when producing. In way's one don't expect. Once in a far past build a fun song around a simple bang on the table. :wink: That's fun!
The reproducing of those famous songs i only do to practice. To train myself.
Thats one reason for me to try to cover stuff. I also download midi files from hits to learn how something I like, will look in a daw.

One of my biggest frustrations when making music or trying to cover stuff.

I hear the melody in my head, but don't have a clue on were to click with the mouse in the piano roll, to get that pattern.

What seems to work for me though.
I hook up my midi controller and play along with the original. I cant play but my sense for rhythm and timing is pretty good.
So I just use one key, and after the recoding worry about scales and which notes it should be.

That how I got the bassline from jam on it in lmms.

My biggest progress comes from hearing / understanding things.
Its funny, songs I have heard many times, suddenly have details I never noticed before.

When I started trying to cover that bass line, I thought it was all the same notes.
Then slowly started to hear that this is not the case, by comparing what I had with the original.
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Re: trying to cover jam on it newclues

Post by rghvdberg »

If you wanna hear some hidden stuff in a song :
  • Search for karaoke in your package manager. It's a ladspa plugin by Steve Harris. The package probably gonna be called swh-plugins.
  • install the plugins (duh)
  • load song in Sonic Visualiser
  • press CTRL+M = Search transform and search for karaoke
  • turn down vocal volume
You don't have to apply the effect, it works realtime too.
Results depend very much on the track. If the track is basically mono, so left channel is almost the same as right channel, it won't do much.
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Re: trying to cover jam on it newclues

Post by Gps »

Thank you, for now I am trying to get those vamp plugins to show in audacity.

I have tried sonic visualizer, but the one I got from openSUSE does not play mp3. ( and I do not like compiling stuff myself, I only use that as a last resort)
Then I found out the vamp plugins should work with audacity too.

I am having issues though, the vamp plugins do not show in audacity.

I might have to add a line, to a config file. ( the path to the vamp plugins )
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Re: trying to cover jam on it newclues

Post by Gps »

I am using lmms for music production, audacity I only use to make an mp3 from the output of lmms. ( wave or ogg. )

Because I had issues with sonic visualizer, it refused to load mp3 files, I switched to audacity for the vamp plugins.

From what I read, the result from vamp plugins depends largely on the music you put in to it.
But I found an instrumental version, of jam on it, with even a part were you only hear the sound I am after.

There seems to be someting weird. I have tried just notes like C1, C2, C1 C2 and C4 D4 C4 D4 also synth arpeggios, but I cant get it close to that sound.
Around 6 min.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEf8yop3-kc

I am hoping the vamp plugins will show me a pattern i can use, or a clue on what is happening. :)

I am also covering stil DRE, and maybe a tip for others, two free piano vst sound pretty good together.

4front piano and jazz baby. 4 front has a pretty good piano sound, but its a bit thin. Layering is with jazz baby is a step forward.

http://www.vst4free.com/free_vst.php?pl ... ano&id=971

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S31xHawsu8Y

Two very simple vst, but they work.
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Re: trying to cover jam on it newclues

Post by rghvdberg »

the sound @ 6:00
it's made using a delay (I think)
gonna have a closer look/listen when I have time

also, strange that Sonic Visualiser doesn' t play mp3.
Start Sonic Visualiser -> Help -> About
check if it says : Using MAD mp3 decoder
2017-02-11-200454_323x48_scrot.png
2017-02-11-200454_323x48_scrot.png (9.76 KiB) Viewed 1569 times
does it play any other format ?
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Re: trying to cover jam on it newclues

Post by Gps »

I got sonic visualzer from an official openSUSE source, I suspect that to be the reason why it does not play mp3.
It did play .ogg files.

That opensuse source is very strict about all software being opensource.
Richard Stallman will aprove it.

I do agree for some part with his ideas, but I am also a normal computer user, who just wants that bloody thing to work, even if the movie I want to see is not in an opensource fromat. :wink:

Thats also why openSUSE has packman. You add that repository, and then even opensuse plays mp3 and all movie formats, and LMMS comes with working VeSTige.)

I ones wanted to try Ardour, and then found a page telling me, I should not use vst on Linux.

Let me make clear I do not use Linux just because its free, I do support the open source ideas, but not using vst in a daw ?

Not an option for me. Do some vst freez lmms and make it a crash happy application ? Yes they do, but some just work fine.
And the smile its puts on my face that I can play through lmms and wine on a mini moog, is for me worth the trouble I experience with some vst that do cause issues.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqLDw4UfhD4 (all knobs can be automated in lmms)

About the sound, I have been wondering about delay, it also seem to fade out a bit and then start over.

Although clearly not right, 5 to 7 alternating notes and then repeating only the lowest, seems a step closer.

Its possible though the Newclues did something like this, an TB 808 and a Juno.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_zWELmLG9o

I never used real hardware synths, but what I do understand is that the 808 triggers the juno arpeggio.
Mostly because of this vid, were an 707 triggers a juno.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vh_5RDi1e4
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Re: trying to cover jam on it newclues

Post by rghvdberg »

Ardour works perfectly fine with vst, but that would be the linux vst.

You can run windows vst plugins but that needs a work-a-round. It's called bridging.
In LMMS this bridge is provided by Vestige.

You can however bridge using other software. Two popular choices are Carla and Airwave.
The work a bit different but both need wine installed, but I'm pretty sure vestige needs that too.
For carla you need to install some extra bridges. Search the package manager for that.
Carla can be loaded as an lv2 or vst plugin, and from within Carla you can load other plugins, so you can load those windows vst too.

Airwave takes a different approach. It links windows vst dll files from your wine install to linux *.so files. This makes the daw think that it is using a linux vst, while in fact it is a windows vst, 'translated' by wine.
All the paramaters that use can automate are exposed tot the daw. It's fantastic.

I think LMMS is a fun tool an can do, some things, even better than Ardour.
The automation tracks are very clever. Having one track automate several paramaters is pretty handy.
But when you really want to process and mix the audio from the plugins then I think you are better of with a regular DAW.

Unfortunately LMMS can't sync with jack. That would be awesome. Make beats in LMMS, route them through jack to Ardour for further processing. I'm afraid this wont happen soon. If ever.
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Re: trying to cover jam on it newclues

Post by Gps »

Mp3 is missing from that list under help.

I just reinstalled sonic visualizer because audacity cant do what I want to try. Show grids.
So now need to figure out how to make it read mp3 too, I do have lame installed, so it might be as simple as changing some file.

Some vamp plugins do work in audacity but not all. Audacity only shows in the import plugin list, plugins it can use.
That why I could not find the plugins I was looking for. :lol:

I think we agree about lmms, but for now for me its enough. I know of people who make a track in lmms and then master it in fruity loops.

I have been watching allot if vid of people using any daw ( fruityloops. albeton, cubase,and one I cant recall right now)
Learned a lot from it, and did not see anything I cant do in lmms.

Feel free to tell if I am wrong, I can only learn from it.

The one vid that did make me look at Ardour was this one ( lmms does not have lv2 support yet :( )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR6mRkFkoBQ

I would love to export an lmms track to ardour.
LMMS next release should have working midi export.

When I said vst, I did mean windows vst.
Vestige uses wine, I can confirm that.

Carla is another reason why I have looked at ardour.

One reason for me to switch would be, if I can get a better sound from ardour then lmms.
I doubt I am good enough yet though. I slowly start to understand the calf plugins in lmms.( and when I want to use them )
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Re: trying to cover jam on it newclues

Post by rghvdberg »

Gps wrote:Mp3 is missing from that list under help.

I just reinstalled sonic visualizer because audacity cant do what I want to try. Show grids.
So now need to figure out how to make it read mp3 too, I do have lame installed, so it might be as simple as changing some file.
Very unlikely. I think the app should be compiled with mp3 built in. Seems like the packagers from opensuse removed the mp3 option.

Some vamp plugins do work in audacity but not all. Audacity only shows in the import plugin list, plugins it can use.
That why I could not find the plugins I was looking for. :lol:
I found you need to enable the plugins in Audacity first. In my version I have "Analazy", then click on "Add/Remove plugins"
I think we agree about lmms, but for now for me its enough. I know of people who make a track in lmms and then master it in fruity loops.

I have been watching allot if vid of people using any daw ( fruityloops. albeton, cubase,and one I cant recall right now)
Learned a lot from it, and did not see anything I cant do in lmms.

Feel free to tell if I am wrong, I can only learn from it.
Well, real side chaining is one thing LMMS can't do.
But overall the mixing, arranging of a song is easier (I think)
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to steer you away from LMMS, but you mentioned that Ardour doesn't support VST, which is just not true.
The one vid that did make me look at Ardour was this one ( lmms does not have lv2 support yet :( )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR6mRkFkoBQ

I would love to export an lmms track to ardour.
LMMS next release should have working midi export.

When I said vst, I did mean windows vst.
Vestige uses wine, I can confirm that.

Carla is another reason why I have looked at ardour.

One reason for me to switch would be, if I can get a better sound from ardour then lmms.
I doubt I am good enough yet though. I slowly start to understand the calf plugins in lmms.( and when I want to use them )
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to steer you away from LMMS, but you mentioned that Ardour doesn't support VST, which is just not true.

I can't say if Ardour gives you a better sound because that all depends on your mixing.
Also remember that Ardour doesn't have all the synths and samplers built-in like LMMS does!
It's always possible to export a song or tracks from LMMS and import them in Ardour or another app to process the audio if you have the need for that.

But again, please keep using LMMS if you enjoy it and it works for you!

I once made a silly song with it just to try it out. It's rather silly but I still learned a lot from it.
https://soundcloud.com/rghvdberg/demo-m ... b-liedje-1

yes I know ... silly
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