Do you want more people to use Linux for music?

Discuss how to promote using FLOSS to make music.

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Do you want more people to use Linux for music?

Yes
22
71%
No
0
No votes
Other
9
29%
 
Total votes: 31

glowrak guy
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Re: Do you want more people to use Linux for music?

Postby glowrak guy » Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:35 pm

merlyn wrote:
  • Beginner -- OK
  • Noob -- What's that?
  • Windows User -- I just want to click Next -> Next -> Next -> Next and end up with random toolbars in my browser.
Estimates I have seen show that Linux is on less than 2% of desktops. To have more users Linux has to be approachable for someone coming from Windows.

From what I read, and have experienced, noobies, musicians, composers, producers, and mastering engineers
just want to click Next -> Next -> Next -> Next and end up with a stable, full featured, and easily expandable
computer enhanced workflow.

Regardless of which OS is used, a superiority complex doesn't make music.
Doesn't build community, and in the case of linux users, can help isolate us,
rather than increase our numbers.

And within the linux musician community, there are enormous divisions,
competing factions, and easily bruisable egos, so there is no unified position
from which one can easily promote linux as a viable alternative to the
products used by the majority of computer enhanced musicians using
some version(s) of windoze or 0Sex ...oops, see how easy the insults flow? :wink:

Linux can be cheerfully promoted in many places where vendors are desired,
trade shows, town festivals, music festivals, farmers and specialist markets,
school or business promotional events, computer hobbyist shows,
and locally among friends and aquaintences.

Bootable usbsticks and CD/DvD's with a note covering launching them,
is something not available for windows and mac users to hand out.
Keep an ear to the wind, for users with severe problems leaving their
computer un-usable, and there are bored young people by the gazillions
who think a vst is what you got on a very bad friday night,
and whose main allegiance is to their phone rather than some desktop computer OS.
let alone exploring artistic potential with one.

Being friendly and helpful is the way forward, regardless of the numbers or results.
Cheers

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Linuxmusician01
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Re: Do you want more people to use Linux for music?

Postby Linuxmusician01 » Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:22 pm

glowrak guy wrote:
merlyn wrote:
  • Beginner -- OK
  • Noob -- What's that?
  • Windows User -- I just want to click Next -> Next -> Next -> Next and end up with random toolbars in my browser.
Estimates I have seen show that Linux is on less than 2% of desktops. To have more users Linux has to be approachable for someone coming from Windows.


I would like to add the millennial smart phone user:
  • Computer? Duh!
Most people now a days don't even know anymore what an operating system is and don't care either, I think. This is a blessing in disguise if you ask me. Youngsters see so many interfaces and computer stuff that they'll get used to just about anything (there's: mediacenter software/hardware, NAS software/hardware, Xbox, Playstation, Android, smart TV, Windows 10, MacOS, iOS, etc., etc.). If they don't like Windows and if they see that Linux works with a better working version of Google Play called "repositories" to easily install software then they will ditch MacOS or Windows in a heartbeat.

The real problem IMHO is that most youngsters (read: my friends kids) have no skills whatsoever concerning computers. There's so much of it around that it just is not possible to deepen your knowledge. They cannot copy a photograph from hard disk to USB stick for me. They want to send it to me via Whatsapp. For cryin' out loud: they use Microsoft's online version of Office which does not facilitate automatic chapter numbering nor inserting an automated table of contents. They do that by hand, I swear! They might as well have used a typewriter. And, by golly, the 7-year old of a friend of mine asked one for his birthday! He loves it. Youngsters are interested in "old school". They like Pac-Man and still play Counter Strike. Combined "old school" interest in tech (read: the command line and hacking) and operating systems results in Linux. In the old days you really had to ditch a lot of skill and knowledge to swith OS. Now-a-days kids don't have that so they don't care. They think Linux is Windows w/ a better software store and a better looking interface. As long as they can go online to that wretched Facebook and check Youtube they're fine. Nobody uses computers anymore for serious work.

glowrak guy wrote:[..] and whose main allegiance is to their phone rather than some desktop computer OS.
let alone exploring artistic potential with one.

That remark led me to the above statement, thanks. ;)


P.S. Why do you press Enter halfway through each sentence, Glowrak??
Last edited by Linuxmusician01 on Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:24 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Digital Larry
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Re: Do you want more people to use Linux for music?

Postby Digital Larry » Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:33 pm

I think what we need are tools to do a job. I've been using computers since the early 80's and believe it or not, resent the suggestion that since my main OS is Windows that I am somehow feebleminded or incompetent. Give me a break. I think if you use Linux for music making that is fine but you are going to learn a lot more about Linux in the process which may or may not be what you were after. In my case, since I use Linux all the time anyway for work, I do not care. Sometimes I like messing around with config files and JACK setups, and sometimes I don't. Did learning about Linux help me write a song? Not in the least.

The open source aspect of Linux is interesting but I wonder how many people have actually contributed to or led an open source project? I built up an open source tool to create DSP sound effects over another guy's open source library. It never would have happened without him. I even got to meet him and thank him. But if you were to look at my code, you might wonder where the heck I am coming from. I'm not really a software engineer by trade so I'm sure I did a bunch of things sloppily or in ignorance "whatever works".

I don't know how much time I spent on it but I obsessively worked on it for about three years and then largely lost interest and left a bunch of loose ends. To a certain extent this describes a number of open source packages. e.g. Hydrogen is a great drum machine, but it looks like the developers are not that interested in continuing to support it. Why is Jack not enabled on the Mac version? No clue.

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Michael Willis
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Re: Do you want more people to use Linux for music?

Postby Michael Willis » Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:57 pm

Digital Larry wrote:But if you were to look at my code, you might wonder where the heck I am coming from.

Guilty as charged

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Digital Larry
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Re: Do you want more people to use Linux for music?

Postby Digital Larry » Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:59 pm

Linuxmusician01 wrote:
merlyn wrote:For the number of Linux users to increase we have to 'turn' Windows users. That means making Linux more attractive and accessible to them. Which means more GUIs, less command line.

I disagree. We need to show them that the command line works easier than searching for that one little piece of functionality in a GUI. I love the CLI and am appreciating a GUI less and less. Couldn't do without it though...

This isn't even a Linux vs. Windows argument, but let's compare a couple Linux looper programs, Sooperlooper and luppp. If you want to assign a MIDI command to a function in SL's GUI, you right-click on it, click on "MIDI Learn" and within a few seconds it is working. In luppp there is no such thing, just a config file you can edit. Go ahead... I'll wait. In the meantime I am making music while you are not, because a GUI made it easier for me to set the thing up the way I wanted.

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khz
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Re: Do you want more people to use Linux for music?

Postby khz » Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:30 pm

In theory, since there are more people on the planet, it would be logical that there are more active developers in the GNU/Linux area. The first generation of GNU/Linux developers are getting older and older with all its consequences. I have no idea how many young developers there are. But I guess there are only a few.
GNU/Linux^Audio is then once again a side branch where there may be even less active people. This work full of heart and soul to, and beyond, exhaustion for GNU/Linux^Audio.
It needs more enthusiastic young developers.
I am happy if GNU/Linux^Audio would be used by more people, purely from a philosophical point of view. Among other things, music has something to do with freedom.

But I think that in the best case everything stays as it always was.
In the worst case, even with more new users, it even gets worse because of it: The commercial takes over more and more.
FZ - Does humor belongs in Music?
GNU/LINUX@AUDIO ~ /Wiki $ Howto.Info && GNU/Linux Debian installing >> Linux Audio Workstation LAW
    I don't care about the freedom of speech because I have nothing to say.

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Digital Larry
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Re: Do you want more people to use Linux for music?

Postby Digital Larry » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:13 pm

I guess I found this topic somewhat provocative, so don't mind me...

It doesn't seem like there are current highly regarded Linux DAW packages which are not cross platform. Reaper, Ardour, Bitwig, etc. It's just the reality of developers who want to be actively compensated for the effort they put into developing stuff would make it work on as many platforms as possible. While I agree that projects which are based on other open source projects should remain open source, I'm not so sure I think that everything that is ever written by a software engineer must instantly be published for the whole wide world to use. It's the Little Red Hen all over again.

I also wonder what the percentage of people who use Linux for music actually compile the applications themselves and dig into the code to fix or improve or customize things? I am guessing it's very low. I consider myself capable of doing this (and did actually compile Sooperlooper after 2 hours of working out kinks in the configuration). However I'd need to be really highly motivated to take on a project like that single handed, especially if I didn't really know any programming.

I'm actually quite impressed by the current state of various apps on Linux, but the thing that would really draw someone into it to the exclusion of "those other things" would be someone who actually wants to patch bits together similar to using a hardware modular synth. I have one of those as well and it too leads one in a different direction. Or, if you are primarily motivated by the "freedom" concept that's OK too, but it deflects the question of whether it's a superior solution.

So, it's a shame that Linux apps such as Sooperlooper and Hydrogen (which I will henceforth talk about constantly unless something better comes along) have reached the end... of something. They still work but the original developers aren't taking them anywhere, and I don't blame them. I think many of these were born from passionate pursuit of creative ideas, and that is hard to sustain year over year unless it's really putting the pancakes on the table.

merlyn
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Re: Do you want more people to use Linux for music?

Postby merlyn » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:32 pm

Digital Larry wrote:I've been using computers since the early 80's and believe it or not, resent the suggestion that since my main OS is Windows that I am somehow feebleminded or incompetent.

You weren't averse to typing commands into the bash, so you don't fit the definition of 'Windows User' in the original post. It seems to have been missed that I was laughing out loud when I typed the 'next -> next -> next -> next' line (at least my brother (an IT professional) laughed). Does humour belong in forum posts? Probably not. :D

By coincidence last night I was fixing a Surface Pro 3 with Focusrite Scarlett 3rd Gen. It now works better than it did. I'm not sure why. 'nuff said :D

I liked @raboof's post -- he really has thought this through. He divides the landscape into 'tinkerers' and 'consumers'. That's a good way of thinking about it. Also -- 'we need more tinkerers'. My interpretation of that is -- tinkerers improve the system, and an improved system brings more consumers. We don't have to go after consumers, they come to us as the system improves. We don't have to go after tinkerers either -- they show up of their own accord.

My vague sense of wanting more users is really to see a penguin beside the apple and window when looking at hardware. M-Audio used to do that, and I thought it would spread. It hasn't, I imagine due to lack of users.

Ubuntu's goal was to have Linux on 10% of desktops. They've fallen a bit short :

statistic_id218089_operating-systems-market-share-of-desktop-pcs-2013-2019-by-month.png

Disappointing though it is, it's not a problem and if Linux had a huge user base it wouldn't be the Linux we know.
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Digital Larry
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Re: Do you want more people to use Linux for music?

Postby Digital Larry » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:52 pm

merlyn wrote:
Digital Larry wrote:I've been using computers since the early 80's and believe it or not, resent the suggestion that since my main OS is Windows that I am somehow feebleminded or incompetent.

You weren't averse to typing commands into the bash, so you don't fit the definition of 'Windows User' in the original post. It seems to have been missed that I was laughing out loud when I typed the 'next -> next -> next -> next' line (at least my brother (an IT professional) laughed). Does humour belong in forum posts? Probably not. :D

Disappointing though it is, it's not a problem and if Linux had a huge user base it wouldn't be the Linux we know.

All right, well I should know better than to get my GRUB table scrambled, anyway (cough) :)

My current livelihood revolves entirely around embedded and server type Linux systems, including Raspberry Pis. But those are all "internet/IoT infrastructure or endpoints". I have no lack of Linux in my life, but for sure it's not as a daily desktop and it's not for music making YET other than my aforementioned activities.

merlyn
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Re: Do you want more people to use Linux for music?

Postby merlyn » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:32 pm

@Digital Larry : The 'W' word is a bit of a grenade and irresponsible of me to use. I look forward to hearing how your looping setup progresses.

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Re: Do you want more people to use Linux for music?

Postby ufug » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:17 pm

This thread is really interesting.

I think most of the folks here are highly technically oriented individuals who are are curious about computers, and care deeply about software freedom. Many of the active users on the forum have created the projects that I use to make music with (I am extremely grateful to them), many are tinkerer musicians like me. I doubt anyone who has been here for long is purely a musician with little interest in the tinkering part.
Paul Davis' LAC talk really captured this well.

This is anecdotal, but I have only three friends I can think of who work in IT/tech fields. They have zero interest in making music on Linux, they are not musicians.

Meanwhile I have dozens of friends who are musicians, songwriters, studio engineers. I tell them about Linux, but they also have zero interest in making music on Linux if it doesn't run ProTools, Live, Reason, Logic etc. Never mind plugins. They gripe about upgrades etc, but they are not at all interested in learning about Linux if they can't run their tools. They are not going to take the time to learn WINE and Carla etc. Why would they?

So "Do you want more people to use Linux for music?" is a funny question. I wish! Yes! But I don't think many musicians are excited by the idea of giving up everything they know and use to make music with. It will likely always be the 2% of the 2%.

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bluebell
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Re: Do you want more people to use Linux for music?

Postby bluebell » Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:11 am

merlyn wrote:Disappointing though it is, it's not a problem and if Linux had a huge user base it wouldn't be the Linux we know.


That's right. Phone-home programs, iLoks, nag screens everywhere, subscription models, binary-only kernel modules that won't work with the following kernel version ... all the crap Windows users are used to.
Linux – MOTU UltraLite AVB – Qtractor – https://soundcloud.com/suedwestlicht

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Linuxmusician01
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Re: Do you want more people to use Linux for music?

Postby Linuxmusician01 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:40 am

Maybe we need more Linuxers to become musicians instead of the other way around... :wink:


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