My Third Production

[finotti]

Here is my third full production: Stolen.

The sequencing was done in Muse and recording/mixing in Ardour. I've recorded the guitars (direct, using IRs for cab simulation) and sequenced the rest. I've used for the first time DrumGizmo's CrocellKit. Most of the synths are Zyn, which I really like! The bass is Samsara's Ohm Bass 2.

As with my other recordings, this was supposed to be sung, but I recorded the vocal parts on the guitar instead. (I can't sing...)

I've struggled quite a bit with the mixing this time. I completely scratched my first mix... Hopefully this second one is OK. (Comments, criticisms and suggestions are more than welcome!)

In particular, despite the CrocellKit having more instruments and samples, I liked the sound of my previous recordings using the MuldjordKit better. But I am not sure if it was the mixing... (The MuldjordKit in my previous mixes just sounded "more natural".)

Anyway, this is a long one (8.5 minutes) and a bit more on the progressive side.

You can find my ramblings on the song and recoding here: http://luisfinotti.org/music/#stolen

I hope some might enjoy!

[ufug]

Very impressive work. I can't imagine the time and care you invested in this project (and your guitar skills!) and it really shows.

Mixing feedback: I am listening on bad computer speakers, and it's hard to hear anything but the guitar unless I crank it up really loud. Could be tucked in a little more.

Hope you will like the Senior mixing book you mentioned in your notes, it's brilliant. So much good information in there.

[finotti]

Very impressive work. I can't imagine the time and care you invested in this project (and your guitar skills!) and it really shows.

Mixing feedback: I am listening on bad computer speakers, and it's hard to hear anything but the guitar unless I crank it up really loud. Could be tucked in a little more.

Hope you will like the Senior mixing book you mentioned in your notes, it's brilliant. So much good information in there.

Thanks for the comments and suggestion. I will listen to it again with that in mind and perhaps make a new mix!

It did take a long time to sequence/record everything! But it is very nice to see your vision taking shape and I really didn't want to spare any efforts (well, almost any) for the final result.

I've been having a hard time finding the time to read the "Mixing Secrets for the Small Studio" (hint I've picked up in this forum!). I've been so tired I start reading at night and am asleep two minutes later... So far I've been reading about setting the home studio, and it's been really interesting.

Thank you very much for your kind words and for taking the time listen and comment!

[folderol]

Very much enjoy this. I can't think of anything I'd want changed.

[forestandgarden]

Long live shred guitar. Long live 7/8.

I enjoyed this.

The drums sound excellent, not least for the crafty programming. As small speakers and opinions go, they differ - the (lead) guitars rather stand out here on my tablet. Thanks, too, for the no-fuss approach to sharing the file. I will listen to this a few more times to discover all the lines & parts, as at first sight, there seem to be many, rather than a single catchy hookline.

Btw, there is a guy over at Virtual Music Projects who has offered an unfinished piece called Mr.E's Draft for collaboration and input from others, it could be on your line.

[finotti]

Long live shred guitar. Long live 7/8.

I enjoyed this.

Thank you so much for listening and commenting! Having grown up in the 80s, I guess shred guitar is a part of me...

The drums sound excellent, not least for the crafty programming. As small speakers and opinions go, they differ - the (lead) guitars rather stand out here on my tablet.

When you say "stand out", do you mean like too loud in the mix? I will give it a go with a little less guitar, as suggested by ufug.

Thanks, too, for the no-fuss approach to sharing the file. I will listen to this a few more times to discover all the lines & parts, as at first sight, there seem to be many, rather than a single catchy hookline.

Thanks! Let me know if you have any suggestions!

Btw, there is a guy over at Virtual Music Projects who has offered an unfinished piece called Mr.E's Draft for collaboration and input from others, it could be on your line.

Yes, indeed it is, and it will be my next project! (Or at least I will give it a go...)

Thanks again!

[Brian]

very nice.

("Mixing Secrets for the Small Studio") -- I'm stealing this tidbit, as well.

[forestandgarden]

Thank you so much for listening and commenting! Having grown up in the 80s, I guess shred guitar is a part of me...

.

Yeah, it's dawning on me that on this forum, we're mainly a bunch of males well in their mid 40s, trying to look sexy.

When you say "stand out", do you mean like too loud in the mix? I will give it a go with a little less guitar, as suggested by ufug.

Yes, and I have to apologize, I didn't read ufug's post well. Thought he doesn't hear the guitar when he said 'nothing but'. Please don't get me wrong now, I am not trying to ridicule you, but this picture maybe best describes my impression: so there is a proper 'wall of sound' made up of most importantly background gits&synths here, stretching all over (the back of) the stage, and in walks a guy with a lttle combo amp, places it right in the middle and at the front edge of the stage, points it at the audience and begins to play. So yes, simply pulling the fader back a bit will definitely not be a mistake, and then, but that's my taste, a little less bite, a little more singing mid/high mids, which will also psychoacoustically pull the guitar back a little. Then, this guitar is coming too much from one point, again, my taste, more of the already existing reverb may work, but I doubt it, my weapon of choice is putting a few delays in the 5-25ms range right and left of the guitar, right after the amp speaker, or if you are working with simulated amps and have spare dsp power, you can split the guitar (signal ) with the delay(s) and go into several amps. In any case, adjust pan and volume of the delayed signals to taste, a simple way to implement this idea would be the L/C/R delay plugin, using i.e left 15ms right 22ms, no feedback and center either not at all or for something more audible and musical like 100-300ms with a little feedback, adjust to song tempo,, adjust volumes with the dry and per delay channel wet volumes, edit the channel panner to reduce width if the result is too 'stereo' . Of course, any properly stereo (not just 2x) time-axis effect (chorus, flanger, phaser) with a wet level reduced to taste, would produce a similar result.

I will listen to this a few more times to discover all the lines & parts, as at first sight, there seem to be many, rather than a single catchy hookline.

I have listened more times now and discovered that here is such a thing as a chorus line, although it's not really an elaborate melody. In a way, it is an injustice: I have a preference for instrumental music myself, and yet it's so much easier to get people's attention, mine included, by use of the human voice, and you said that the guitar is playing the voice, in fact. In the places where it is doing that, it's maybe ok to let it sound different and come more to the front, possibly doubled.

As to suggestions, I'd say enjoy your song now, listen to it, bathe in it, saturate yourself, you've earned it, but before working on it again, beyond small adjustments: let it rest, let it settle, listen to other stuff, to come back with a fresh ear & mind.

Then, if you wish, you could be looking in to the following: This work is like a journey to very different places, returning to some at times, like a theater play with several scenes - let it have more of a dramaturgy, let these scenes be more different from each other by whichever dramaturgical means come to hand, be it sound and placement of the different instruments, master eq, different ways of compressing, room parameters, effects - use your imagination and engineering knowledge. It would probably become a major exercise in using automatation, I'd at the very least save a snapshot before going wild.

I hope this isn't too long a comment, but you've invited it

Thanks! Let me know if you have any suggestions!

Thanks for asking!

[ufug]

I hope this isn't too long a comment, but you've invited it

I wont speak for finotti, but getting feedback like this is always a good thing! The track is already so solid, it inspires discussion of the finer points.

I wouldn't have remarked on the guitar jumping out except that is something I've been working on a lot in my own mixes. I always have a hard time getting the lead vocal to sit right, in that space between too loud and buried. EQ and compression are great tools, but there is a real art to getting the fader to sit in just the right spot in the first place.

The best musical tool I ever got was from a recommendation in the Mike Senior book (mentioned in finotti's notes to the song) to get an Auratone-style monitor. I've been doing most of my mixing on that--a sealed 5" mono box. If I can get things balanced correctly on that, the mix will usually sound good on my phone speaker, the car, nice headphones etc. It's especially helpful for vocals/guitar solos and bass. It's like a microscope for mixing.

[finotti]

Thanks forestandgarden, ufug and 42low for the comments!

[snip]

When you say "stand out", do you mean like too loud in the mix? I will give it a go with a little less guitar, as suggested by ufug.

Yes, and I have to apologize, I didn't read ufug's post well. [...] So yes, simply pulling the fader back a bit will definitely not be a mistake,

Thanks for the suggestion! I've tried it in the new mix below.

and then, but that's my taste, a little less bite, a little more singing mid/high mids, which will also psychoacoustically pull the guitar back a little.

Do you mean less highs and more mids?

Then, this guitar is coming too much from one point, again, my taste, more of the already existing reverb may work, but I doubt it, my weapon of choice is putting a few delays [...]

I've already had it set up with a short and a long delay (plus a little reverb). I tried to turn the delays up a little to see if it helps with that.

I hope this isn't too long a comment, but you've invited it

Indeed, and I appreciate the feedback!

I hope this isn't too long a comment, but you've invited it

I wont speak for finotti, but getting feedback like this is always a good thing! The track is already so solid, it inspires discussion of the finer points.

I wouldn't have remarked on the guitar jumping out except that is something I've been working on a lot in my own mixes. I always have a hard time getting the lead vocal to sit right, in that space between too loud and buried. EQ and compression are great tools, but there is a real art to getting the fader to sit in just the right spot in the first place.

The best musical tool I ever got was from a recommendation in the Mike Senior book (mentioned in finotti's notes to the song) to get an Auratone-style monitor. I've been doing most of my mixing on that--a sealed 5" mono box. If I can get things balanced correctly on that, the mix will usually sound good on my phone speaker, the car, nice headphones etc. It's especially helpful for vocals/guitar solos and bass. It's like a microscope for mixing.

Indeed, constructive criticism is very welcome!

I've read about the mono mixing, and it does sound like a great idea. For space and budget reasons, it will have to wait a little, but someday...

Super song! Nicely made.

But why did you the first 54 seconds placed the guitars totally at the back of the hall? They sound so far away, and i think they would sound better if you put them in front still in that big hall.

I assume you mean lower the delays/reverb? I will give it a try and see. I do like reverbs/delay too much, I guess. Thanks for the comment!

Anyway, I have a new tentative mix, with the guitar a little back (and other very minor tweaks). Please do let me know if it is better and if you have any further comments! Here it is: http://luisfinotti.org/music/files/Stol ... _11.51.mp3

[forestandgarden]

I wont speak for finotti, but getting feedback like this is always a good thing! The track is already so solid, it inspires discussion of the finer points.

I am glad you say that, since in the age of mandatory positive thinking, too often it is going unnoticed that criticism implies there be something worth criticising in the first place. I'd never bother to criticise anything that I can't, in some way, relate to.

@finotti careful A/B auditing* will have to wait, since I am in the middle of working up my correspondence, but as a spontaneous idea:

what about exporting the lead guitar with no more than the necessary effects as one track, and the mix without lead guitar, karaoke style, as another one, and uploading the pair as a simple open mixing/mastering exercise/challenge for the community of this forum? It would mean starting a new thread in the 'Virtual Music Projects' section (which I would love to see re-baptized into 'Collaborative Projects', since the collaborators are real, not virtual), posting the download there and optionally stating what use of it is and isn't permitted, if necessary. Then this new project could be linked to from here to make it known, and a notice in the Producer's Area should be in order, too.

I mean, often has it been said that music is a language, so to me it seems only consequent to endorse communication by means of, and not only about, music.

*on my "best gear", a car radio plus home audio speakers for monitors=good enough, just to let anyone who can't or won't splash out on 'pro' gear know that he/she isn't the only one

[forestandgarden]

Browser or edit error - multiple post I cannot completely remove

[forestandgarden]

Browser or edit error - multiple post I cannot completely remove

[forestandgarden]

Browser or edit error - multiple post I cannot completely remove

[forestandgarden]

Anyway, I have a new tentative mix, with the guitar a little back (and other very minor tweaks). Please do let me know if it is better and if you have any further comments! Here it is: http://luisfinotti.org/music/files/Stol ... _11.51.mp3

BIG THUMBS UP!

There seems to be much truth in what ufug said:

, but there is a real art to getting the fader to sit in just the right spot in the first place.

Small change, big difference: the impression of 'loneliness' of the guitar in the mix is gone, it's a part now without having ceased to be a lead, and as a side effect, more details of the accompainment get noticed in some places.

So don't give undue importance to my ramblings about posting the mix for collaboration, this would be more for playing around and with luck, a feedback of inspiration, not because your mix was wanting.

Forget also about my speculation on elaborate manipulation of the guitar's stereo image with more plugins, the r12 mix proves that it was not needed, and generally 'less is more' is an excellent guideline.

Thanks, thus, for the opportunity to compare these relatively similar mixes, it's a highly welcome training for the ear. I wonder if I will be able to spot the 'other very minor tweaks', Are the 'berserk drums' in the run up to 4:02 one of them, that is, very slightly more prominent, or was that my imagination?