Future Linux audio hardware Interface support

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Musicmaker
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Future Linux audio hardware Interface support

Post by Musicmaker »

Just dropping a note with thoughts about the current situation of hardware audio interfaces and new technologies such as AVB (TSN) and Thunderbolt 3 on Linux compared to other platforms.

Mac platform:

AVB: Mac Ethernet cards support 802.1qav for AVB already, Focusrite uses Dante for TSN . Thunderbolt: Supported by several manufacturers Focusrite, MOTU and Antelope already. The Mac platform seem well supported for Thunderbolt and TSN. USB and Firewire have always been well supported as wel.

Windows based PC (Intel):

For AVB there a few NICs with AVB support, some are very expensive but the Intel 201T is affordable now and can be found for prices as low as $35, but there is no AVB ASIO driver. MOTU self developed a Windows ASIO AVB driver. Focusrite (based on DANTE not AVB) is supported by their virtual sound card driver. AVB is not standard on the PC and proprietary implementation by manufacturers.

Thunderbolt, there are very few, (but pricey) motherboards with TB. For example the Asus Z710 claims TB3 support, but it is just a header. An add in card , at extra cost, supports TB2 only. The Gigabyte GA-X99P-SLI claims to be the first motherboard with TB3 (released on 04/13/2016) but the specifications are not clear what TB/USB-C it support. The spec sheet only seem to support Displayport via USB-C but not other I/O. Focus-rite developed their own TB driver for the Clarett (in Beta) and Microsoft does not officially support TB until TB 3 which will be featured on a USB-C) connector. The Windows platform is far behind the Mac.

Linux based PC:

For AVB there is some discussion on forums using the Intel 210T card but nothing seems to have matured. For Thunderbolt, Linux probably won't have support from manufacturers. Each manufacturer may implement the interface from TB (PCI-e) in a different way and thus Linux be able to support manufacturers products might be a big question mark.

Other considerations

1394 (Firewire) is phasing out and USB2 Interface as we know it may sooner or later be obsolete as well moving all hardware to USB3. (and USB-C connectors). USB audio compliant audio cards that work on Linux can be counted on one hand and interfaces with more than 16 inputs are limited to the Focusrite Firewire solution, Linux has always been poorly supported by manufacturers.

Audio interface development platforms :

There are a few hardware platforms available for development such as the DICE II with FW and USB support and the new DICE III supported AVB as well. Then there is the XMOS X-CORE-200 with AVB and USB interfaces. Likely MOTU and Focurrite are using these chipsets.

Add-on PC cards with 8021.qav are now around $35 to $50 (The Streamwave NIC-1 is still $800) and this combines wih the XCORE based kit from DSP4YOU provides and 16 channel (I2S) audio interface for $270 and each additional 8 channels cost $99 uo to a maximum of 40 channels (with the 5 port switch). The DSP4YOU switch (for $99) is made by Marvell. It is probably the same one MOTU sells for $299. Of-course, AVBcards need I2S to Analog DAC/ADCs. MiniDSP provides the switch at $100 and the AVB card for $90. With such attractive AVB pricing it would be very nice to make these work on Linux. But said on some forums the missing link seems to be the Linux support to connect the NIC with JACK/ALSA. There are development kits for the IDICE III and XMOS USB/AVB platforms as well.

Conclusion

The question is if AVB (and/or Rednet) and Thunderbolt succeed or will we see another new standard or will USB 3.1 be the majority of interfaces for the entry level with AVB and TB in the high end. The Focusrite Clarett interface, the one which has about the same functionality as the 18i20 is $999 that is about $400 more. Perhaps this could be 18i20 based hardware with just a TB (PCI-e) to USB card integrated but it could be a different chipset as well. Who knows.. Anyhow, TB seems to positioned for higher priced segment.

From the manufacturers the Linux community TB//AVB may have little support. Manufacturers need to make their business profitable and Linux has no priority. Linux audio is very much focused on software and not audio hardware.

What's next for Linux audio Hardware support ?

Ir would be nice to see if the Linux could support the XCORE and/or DICE USB/FW/AVB hardware interface platforms as no one can rely on the established brands to support Linux. For IS2 to analog ADC/DAC different versions of such interfaces could be developed from low cost to professional. An opportunity ?

This is a far as I have come collecting information. I am sure you may have other viewpoints and ideas based on your knowledge.

References:
http://www.dsp4you.com/
https://www.minidsp.com/products/network-audio/avb-dg
http://www.tctechnologies.tc/index.php/products/dice3
http://www.xmos.com/products/networked-audio
http://www.gigabyte.com/products/produc ... id=5658#sp
https://www.asus.com/Motherboards/Z170-PRO-GAMING/
http://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/pu ... r-i210.pdf
http://www.amazon.com/Intel-I210-T1-Net ... B00ESFF2JC
http://echoavb.com/products/streamware-nic-1
https://www.audinate.com/solutions/dante-overview
http://c353616.r16.cf1.rackcdn.com/Biam ... _Guide.pdf
gimmeapill
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Re: Future Linux audio hardware Interface support

Post by gimmeapill »

Very informative summary - Thanks!

I'd put my money on TB3 (although not at current audio interface prices).
Some high ends notebooks outside of the Mac world are finally starting to have the port:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_T ... _Computers

So it seems to be gaining some traction - we have the egg.
Where is the chicken is of course another question ;-)
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Re: Future Linux audio hardware Interface support

Post by Musicmaker »

If AVB does have comparable latency, I would prefer that. See an update from MOTU below for 192Khz at about 3msec latency. Another plus for AVB is to just have a web based mixer, no more Alsa-mixer or GUI development needed. Just the audio channels will do and the rest over HTTP. TB also may have a problem that you probably should not have too many peripherals on the TB (= PCI) bus to avoid congestion and most Mobo don't support many TB ports while adding a network card might be much easier and lower cost. AVB is more like a dedicated network. (You need an AVB Hub, a standard hub won't work).

With the gap between Linux and other OS'es for TB/AVB hardware growing so fast now (and recent Ubuntu 16.04 problems with Presonus and Focusrite USB which shows it perhaps external audio hardware is not taken much serious) it is quite hard to hold on to Linux using audio for hardware. This is sad, seeing Linux provides such nice software technologies and API's I have programmed against like ALSA, LV2, Jack and even Linux and it has Bitwig support giving it really an start to compete with other platforms. If BW would support LV2 it would open a lot of possibilities as well. Kind of weird that and open standard as AVB is not supported by an open software platform like Linux. Seen the few postings in the board are so few giving up on Linux audio hardware would probably not be much of a surprise :? Still hoping, but hope is fading very fast.

Seen the spec looks like the MOTU uses the DICE III platform.
http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2016/ ... r-ethernet
http://www.tctechnologies.tc/downloads/TCD3070-CH.pdf
1 x Thunderbolt (compatible with 1 and 2)
1 x USB 2.0 audio class compliant, USB 3.0 and iOS compatible
1 x AVB Ethernet (requires OS X Yosemite)
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Re: Future Linux audio hardware Interface support

Post by Musicmaker »

Just happen to notice the first true TB3 Add on card for PC''s (If I am not mistaken)
This is Asus update of the Thunderbolt-EX II add on card
https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboard-Acc ... rboltEX-3/
Still a hassle to install it. And only compatible with specific Asus Mobos
Still show the premature state of TB3 on PCs

Not sure if it will be really available, as it seems Asus has a habit for vapor-hardware on previous TB cards:
http://www.pcper.com/news/General-Tech/ ... gger-Plans

Upgrade your motherboard in just three simple steps!

Easy upgrade: Slide ASUS ThunderboltEX 3 into PCI-Express 3.0 x4 slot
Compatible with ASUS motherboards: Connect the card to the onboard Thunderbolt header with the supplied system-link cable
DisplayPort 1.2 support: Attach the supplied DisplayPort cable to the card and the onboard DisplayPort connector

Image
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Re: Future Linux audio hardware Interface support

Post by Be. »

Microsoft recently announced support of Thunderbolt 3 audio in Windows 10, the latest generation of Intel chipsets are including Thunderbolt 3 support, and Thunderbolt 3 uses the same confusingly named USB-C connector as USB 3.1, so I think Thunderbolt 3 support will become standard on new laptops in the next year or two and Thunderbolt will cease to be a virtually Apple-only technology. Considering this and the extremely low latencies possible with Thunderbolt, I think the focus of audio interface manufacturers in the next couple years will be Thunderbolt 3. Fortunately, Thunderbolt 3 is essentially PCIe on a wire, so I don't think it would be too big of a project to add support for Thunderbolt 3 audio in Linux. On the other hand, there is no standard like the USB Audio Class specification for Thunderbolt, so every Thunderbolt audio interface will require its own driver. :/ I could envision some manufacturers adding USB class compliant support to Thunderbolt 3 interfaces for backwards compatibility and compatibility with computers that support USB 3.1 but not Thunderbolt 3. Currently, Thunderbolt 2 interfaces are generally quite a bit more expensive than comparable USB interfaces, but I think the market will shift towards Thunderbolt 3 as more computers come out that support it and Thunderbolt 3 interfaces will end up being around the current prices of USB interfaces. That may take several years though.
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Re: Future Linux audio hardware Interface support

Post by aicram »

Hello,

I hope for Thunderbolt 3. From some recent articles below, it appears linux is seeing some support now. I like the idea of being able to
continue using my firewire devices, since they are still my favorite over some usb devices. If I remember correctly it is much faster than the other new port technologies.

Found some articles:

http://www.infoworld.com/article/304006 ... x-pcs.html

http://en.community.dell.com/techcenter ... t/19974705


Sincerely,

aicram
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Re: Future Linux audio hardware Interface support

Post by dsreyes1014 »

I have been seriously considering MOTU for our church's next upgrade and was hoping Linux would catch up with AVB so I wouldn't have to use a Mac computer but support on Linux for pro audio hardware is so scarce. I can't find any information that AVB audio on Linux is getting closer to completion. I have recently installed Mac on my PC as a Hackintosh and I can't stand it but there is no better way to test new AVB/Dante hardware/software. Companies just flat out refuse to support Linux.
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Re: Future Linux audio hardware Interface support

Post by Musicmaker »

Take a look at this recent thread about TB(3) on Windows and Intel chipset/firmware/driver issues. Probably enough to stay away from TB3.
I have to say I was a pretty happy Thunderbolt 2 user (on the Mac) and bought and used a big long chain of TB2 docks and equipment. The Windows world's implementation of Thunderbolt 3 however -- with all sort of undisclosed variations and hidden incompatibilities, not to mention a completely ineffective support mechanism with Intel passing the buck to OEM and OEMs not carrying the weight -- has been an utter disappointment. I regret completely being an early adopter of the technology and will not recommend anyone else bother with all the hassles. Ultimately, Thunderbolt 3 has done nothing for me that other approaches don't also do, without any of the surprise incompatibilities and support headaches, wild goose chases, and dead ends.
Compatibility hell. https://communities.intel.com/thread/11 ... 5&tstart=0
Considering to try the MOTU LP32 (See dedicated post on this product) , with which you actually can bridge from USB to the AVB network. It looks like USB will stay to be the only viable option for Linux, now and in the near future. Hope some work will be done on AVB soon, as several manufacturers now are beginning to provide AVB as an alternative (as Dante is unlikely to be supported on Linux), even I need to install an additional NIC in my desktop. The NIC requirements of-course holds back AVB Linux on current notebooks.
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Re: Future Linux audio hardware Interface support

Post by wjl »

Has anyone tried the Dell XPS13, which in its "developer edition" comes with both Ubuntu as the default OS, and which has TB3?

At work I have a Lenovo P50 which also has TB3, and I also run Ubuntu on it (since my company doesn't allow Debian for "primary workstations"). But I don't have a TB-compatible audio interface, only the Scarlett 6i6 2nd gen which by the way runs just fine with USB3 on my Debian box at home.
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Re: Future Linux audio hardware Interface support

Post by finotti »

I was wondering: USB3 seems to be quite fast (or at least a lot faster than USB2). Would it not be a proper/better replacement to firewrire/USB2? Being so universal, it puzzles me that it is not being adopted. Even the 2nd gen Focusrite Scarlett models use USB 2.0. Shouldn't USB3 be able to at least compete with TB? (Even if losing, it should be much better than USB 2.0!)

Am I missing something? Are there some limitations on the USB 3.0 specifications for audio?
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Re: Future Linux audio hardware Interface support

Post by GuntherT »

USB 2.0 is capable of delivering the speed necessary to move audio in and out of a computer. USB 3.0 would increase the bandwidth, but being USB 2.0 can handle 32 channels in and 32 out, that satisfies the requirements of most people using USB audio interfaces. If you need more than 32 channels in either direction or work with high sample rates, I think there are professional audio equipment options (Thunderbolt, AVB, etc.) that are preferred over USB for latency and stability. Unfortunately, Linux compatibility on those devices is rare, if it exists at all.
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Re: Future Linux audio hardware Interface support

Post by wjl »

finotti wrote:Shouldn't USB3 be able to at least compete with TB?
No, at least not on a technical level. TB connects directly to the CPU, which USB does not.

That said, my Focusrite 2nd generation runs fine on a USB3 port, tho not at the full speed that port could submit/receive. Doesn't matter much for me as long as it's working.

I think RME and others *do* have USB3 interfaces already, so if that's what you're after... and I think their top line even has USB3 *and* TB (not tested by me, I cannot spend 2k+ on just an interface).
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Re: Future Linux audio hardware Interface support

Post by folderol »

wjl wrote:
finotti wrote:Shouldn't USB3 be able to at least compete with TB?
No, at least not on a technical level. TB connects directly to the CPU, which USB does not.
It actually has direct memory access, which is it's greatest weakness as well as strength. It punches a huge great hole in any attempt at security, which to my mind is not something to be taken lightly these days when it seems world+dog it trying to take control.
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Re: Future Linux audio hardware Interface support

Post by chaocrator »

topic sounds like total «no future, no future, no future for you».
but i don't think TB will eventually become the only interface for audio, and all manufacturers will drop other interfaces, e.g. USB.
and if more and more excellent DIY synths and controllers available here and there now, the same can happen with audio interfaces in the future.
btw, parts for them, e.g. DACs, become cheaper and cheaper )
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Re: Future Linux audio hardware Interface support

Post by gimmeapill »

folderol wrote:
wjl wrote:
finotti wrote:Shouldn't USB3 be able to at least compete with TB?
No, at least not on a technical level. TB connects directly to the CPU, which USB does not.
It actually has direct memory access, which is it's greatest weakness as well as strength. It punches a huge great hole in any attempt at security, which to my mind is not something to be taken lightly these days when it seems world+dog it trying to take control.
In the news today, Intel is still putting some weight behind TB it seems. For the better or worse they're gonna put the TB3 controller on die:
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/05 ... -adoption/
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