Bitwig 2.0

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jonetsu
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Bitwig 2.0

Post by jonetsu »

Announcing Bitwig 2.0

Now works on a 'subscription' basis to get updates and new features. 159€ yearly. Upgrading to 2.0 is actually one year of such updates. This is only about updates. The license to use always remains.
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Re: Bitwig 2.0

Post by Luc »

It's not a subscription. You can keep using it after the purchased period expires, you just can't get updates/upgrades.

However, the product gets a price hike from $300 to $400. Very bad news for me. :(
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Re: Bitwig 2.0

Post by sysrqer »

Luc wrote:It's not a subscription. You can keep using it after the purchased period expires, you just can't get updates/upgrades.
Sounds exactly like a subscription to me. If I subscribe to a magazine then I get sent editions which I can keep and read for the rest of my life. If I stop subscribing I don't get any more editions but I can still read the ones I did pay for. That said, that's pretty much what renoise does as well, and most software for that matter.
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Re: Bitwig 2.0

Post by Luc »

My understanding of 'subscription' is that the software will no longer work after the license expires, or maybe it works but it becomes an illegal copy until you renew it.

(Bitwig makes it clear that neither is the case. You just don't get updates.)
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Re: Bitwig 2.0

Post by rghvdberg »

I understand some people are a bit shocked at these prices but I look at it this way.

I play and teach music for a living.
If I need a new instrument I don't really care how much it costs. Someday the instrument will be payed back by playing or teaching on it. After that it makes a profit for me. Costs of instrument I can declare as expenses. All good.

I record and produce mostly as a hobby. I really can't justify buying Bitwig, there's no return on investment.

So Bitwig for hobby musician, price is a bit steep.
For business, no-brainer; record one or two songs, money back. Renew licence? No problem, just write it of as expenses.
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Re: Bitwig 2.0

Post by jonetsu »

sysrqer wrote:That said, that's pretty much what renoise does as well, and most software for that matter.
As far as I can see Renoise/Redux does not have such a thing. One price only, each. There were no releases since quite some time although bugs are seemingly getting fixed according to their log on the forum.
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Re: Bitwig 2.0

Post by jonetsu »

Luc wrote:My understanding of 'subscription' is that the software will no longer work after the license expires, or maybe it works but it becomes an illegal copy until you renew it.

(Bitwig makes it clear that neither is the case. You just don't get updates.)
It's like subscribing to bug fixes and updates.

I signed up for the beta. I will get the update and I will see what happens during 2017. By early 2018 I'll make a decision based on that.
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Re: Bitwig 2.0

Post by sysrqer »

jonetsu wrote:
sysrqer wrote:That said, that's pretty much what renoise does as well, and most software for that matter.
As far as I can see Renoise/Redux does not have such a thing. One price only, each. There were no releases since quite some time although bugs are seemingly getting fixed according to their log on the forum.
No, it has almost exactly the same model. When you buy a license it is for a full version number so if you buy 3.1 then you will have free updates up to 4.1. Their releases have slowed down a lot though, they were working on redux for a while and are currently working on something not directly related to renoise so a license lasts quite a while right now. A bug fix release is due any day now (which is what is meant by them being marked as fixed), the dev said it would likely be released by the end of last year so shouldn't be too long.
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Re: Bitwig 2.0

Post by jonetsu »

sysrqer wrote:No, it has almost exactly the same model. When you buy a license it is for a full version number so if you buy 3.1 then you will have free updates up to 4.1.
Well then most software works that way. u-he works by 'subscription', OvertoneDSP, Tracktion, Mixbus (when npt paying the plugin membership) so on so forth.

Are there ones in the software world that asks to pay for minor in-between versions ?

What's different with Bitwig is that, if by say March 2018 they are still at version say 2.7 are will be going on until maybe 2.12 later on that year, then people who did not pay again at the beginning of 2018 will not get those releases.

What Luc refers to, I'd call leasing. One does not pay the lease, then one cannot use. Your analogy with a magazine subscription is proper i think. One gets to keep the received issues. But one has to renew the subscription. Without the renewal need, eg. u-he, Tracktion and the others for in-between versions, I'm not sure it'd be call a subscription.
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Re: Bitwig 2.0

Post by ssj71 »

jonetsu wrote:What Luc refers to, I'd call leasing. One does not pay the lease, then one cannot use. Your analogy with a magazine subscription is proper i think. One gets to keep the received issues. But one has to renew the subscription. Without the renewal need, eg. u-he, Tracktion and the others for in-between versions, I'm not sure it'd be call a subscription.
I agree with you but I don't think Adobe does. Subscription now has a different meaning for software than what you might think. Leasing sounds worse so they didn't call the pig a pig.

IMO bitwigs licence sounds reasonable. Its expensive I suppose but I assume they have a clue about what their market is. IMO they'd be wise to offer a less expensive 1x buy or 1 month "subscription" but whatever. I prefer ardour anyway :D

EDIT: I didn't realize that subscription price is for a year AFTER the initial $399 buy. Man that IS steep.
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Re: Bitwig 2.0

Post by jonetsu »

ssj71 wrote:EDIT: I didn't realize that subscription price is for a year AFTER the initial $399 buy. Man that IS steep.
Well, no-one forces people to buy the subscription. Even I don't know if I;m going to get it. I might wait for versin 3.0 to be released. I will see by the end of 2017 how the Bitwig team performs and meanwhile I will get the upgrade to 2.0.

As for Ardour vs. Bitwig, I have a hard time comparing them. Like apples and oranges. Ardour does not have any Clip Launcher and Arranger. These two are very useful approaches to composition and sketching. I see Ardour more like a mixing station with editing capabilities. I never make a final mix in Bitwig. I use Mixbus 32C (Ardour-based) instead.
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Re: Bitwig 2.0

Post by Luc »

The Bitwig workforce is mostly comprised of people who left Ableton to run their own business. I am afraid they will gradually advance towards Ableton's very steep price tag as Bitwig improves. They are shaping up the new job to completely replace the old one, in all aspects. They never charged more until now simply because they couldn't. That's my theory.
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Re: Bitwig 2.0

Post by glowrak guy »

Improvements are a key goal in product longevity, and the market
will deal with pricing, in due time. Having 10 daws for linux, with
various features and strengths, makes it easy to choose a few
favoriites, to form a well rounded and purposed studio,
a hair this side of debtors prison :wink:

I think bitwig got too trendy by making an announcement that the mini-mob
could rail against,, rather than just releasing a major update when ready,
with price and changelist for all to weigh.
Fortunately, noisy does not always mean influential.
Seems like commercial devs always have a dozen boobirds on lookout
for something to rant about, as opposed to hundreds or thousands
of customers with emotions and wallets quite well aimed.
Cheers
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Re: Bitwig 2.0

Post by jonetsu »

I find it a wonder what is happening in the Bitwig KVR forum. If it was a political forum there would be a tendancy to lean towards the thought of having paid people trying to bring down something. Like by degrading discussions for instance. The goal being at least preventing the Bitwig team from getting they money they want. But this is not a political forum.

A difference has to be made between healthy criticism and detoriation of communications. And it seems that some of these people are at it on various forums. It's like Bitwig has attracted a bunch of 'free electrons' but only the ones that have no positive charges. It is a very light step to go from the licensing to degrading the small team performance and, to project that will be going on doing that which amounts to picture them as a bunch of crooks more or less, that has no delivered anything substabtial in 3 years since the beginning of the project.

Has someone pointed out, all major DAWs out there have years and years of development. Pro Tools and Cubase I think started in the 80s. Ableton in 2001, FL Studio beginning of the 90s.

Bitwig, a small team, in 2014. 3 years ago.

I am not sure that there is something to understand with the vociferous people who deny seeing what was delivered so far and how it works rather well, as long as one stays glued to this domain of pseudo argumentation. A step back has to be taken to question the actions of these people, I think. What are they actually doing in music production ? What have they produced ? How much with Bitwig ? Did they loose musical revenues because of Bitwig ? If the answers to such questions are basically 'nothing' or 'no' then it can be possible to question the legitimacy, non-biaised of their commentaries. After all it is a business world, and it might be not the nicest.

Cheers.
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here comes the philosopher

Post by forestandgarden »

jonetsu wrote:[...] only the ones that have no positive charges.
Not trying to justify anything here, just developing a few general thoughts. Positive thinking has certainly been absorbed very well by the marketing guild, marketing, in turn, is beginning to affect not only commercial products, but also FLOSS projects, in the form of crowdfunding strategies. Arguably, everything has a balance of good and not so good aspects, if positive and negative exist at all. Marketing, now, aims to systematically associate the product with what is known to be perceived as positive, and possibly dissociate it from what tends to be negatively seen. A great amount of creativity can be developed in going about this task, but in the end, the suggested metaphor of electrically charged particles holds true, and if charges are allowed to flow freely, they will tend towards balancing out, i.e. concentrations of negative charge attracting the positive particles and positively charged places, the negative.
If you truly wish to develop positive thinking as a near-spiritual discipline, your motto must be: "Everything is good!", and you shall never more complain, but what you cannot have, is a battery with a plus pole only.
Everyone is asked to pick up the skills of non-violent communication, but if suddenly not-too-aware people appear as carriers of a negative charge, it must not be forgotten what upset the balance in the first place.

I live in a place where tourism is the main industry. I might find a hotel advertising: "5 mins to the beach". If I add: "..and with the highway in between", because that's how it happens to be, does that make me a negative person?

Mind you, just as a real general thought not to be taken as a direct answer to your defense of bitwig, I'm merely taking that as a point of departure.
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