petition at change.org

[funkmuscle]

Hey, sorry if this has been posted already and if I'm posting in the wrong subforum but y'all check this out.
Someone started a petition to get vst manufactures to make native plugins.:

https://www.change.org/p/steinberg-and- ... e_petition

[GuntherT]

Do we think there are "thousands" of people who want to use commercial plugins on Linux as claimed in the petition? I would have guessed the number was in the hundreds worldwide. If you figure an even smaller subset of people would actually end up purchasing any given plugin, I can see why it is tough to justify on the manufacturer's side of things. Would it be a net loss? I think for a lot of companies it would. Most Linux users like things that are free, so how appealing are more proprietary options? OvertoneDSP put a lot of effort into LV2 compatibility and ended up concluding it wasn't worth it. I think it is good to voice wishes, but I don't think this dream is coming true. Nonetheless, I signed it because I like Linux and would like to see greater compatibility with software and hardware in general.

[funkmuscle]

Do we think there are "thousands" of people who want to use commercial plugins on Linux as claimed in the petition? I would have guessed the number was in the hundreds worldwide. If you figure an even smaller subset of people would actually end up purchasing any given plugin, I can see why it is tough to justify on the manufacturer's side of things. Would it be a net loss? I think for a lot of companies it would. Most Linux users like things that are free, so how appealing are more proprietary options? OvertoneDSP put a lot of effort into LV2 compatibility and ended up concluding it wasn't worth it. I think it is good to voice wishes, but I don't think this dream is coming true. Nonetheless, I signed it because I like Linux and would like to see greater compatibility with software and hardware in general.

I know. I feel the same way and did sign.. I guess we're up to 50 people signing.

[glowrak guy]

Do we think there are "thousands" of people who want to use commercial plugins on Linux as claimed in the petition?

Do we think there are thousands of musicians who dread the next system privacy assault from windows 10?
Do we think there are thousands of musicians who dread the next wave of Apple price increases?

Do we think there are thousands of musicians that just graduated from high school,
who couldn't care less about what operating system they use, as long
as it's secure, and affordable?

Really, at this point, it's incumbent upon the linux community to be friendly,
well grounded, well educated, willing to spare some extra time in helping people who
are attempting to use linux, and being honest about weaknesses and problems
in linux systems, that may limit what can be accomplished in a given use case.

As for cross-platform commercial developers, to make more money,
they need more musicians, and/or they need to dominate their market.
It doesn't profit them when a license holder switches between supported operating systems,
when their licenses typically cover all those systems for one price.

But when a windows hating Mac user needs a $_faster_$ computer for using the latest
U-he synths, and learns that their favorite plugins will run in linux on
a much less expensive, yet more powerful system, making a monetary choice
for buying expensive apple-sticker hardware will be more difficult.

For a big studio, the price is a write-off, for an indie without a tax-preparer,
a few $hundred here and there can help stave off the dreaded day-job.
Let's hope cross-compiling for linux makes some big improvements soon,
so developers will be more open to the option, and choices will grow.

For what it's worth, if someone bought Zebra2, Hive, ACE, Bazille, Diva,
and Repro-1, the factory and free user presets total about 30,000.
If you produced music with 10 presets a day, 300 days a year,
thats about 10 years worth of sounds. I'd better get back to work...
Cheers

[GuntherT]

Do we think there are "thousands" of people who want to use commercial plugins on Linux as claimed in the petition?

Do we think there are thousands of musicians who dread the next system privacy assault from windows 10?
Do we think there are thousands of musicians who dread the next wave of Apple price increases?

Maybe, but I think this has been the case for the last ten years, and it doesn't feel like thousands of new Linux Audio users have shown up during that timeframe. I've seen a fair number of people come and go, but let's face it, Linux Audio takes more effort to get going than either OSX or Windows, an effort a lot of musicians aren't willing to exert. I don't think our small size is mainly due to a lack of support from the community, which is pretty good in my opinion. I think a lack of hardware support and the 'bordering-on-anarchy' nature of Linux is what makes widespread adoption difficult.

I'm all for commercial software compatibility on Linux, but its existence depends on profitability. I think most companies don't write plugins for Linux because it is a very small market and their cost/benefit analysis doesn't show the development and support costs will turn a profit. There are exceptions, of course, but just because a company like Harrison found a place in the Linux Audio ecosystem doesn't convince me the pie is big enough for every plugin company to jump in and start developing for Linux.

I'd love to see it happen and be proven wrong about my assumptions regarding the size of the Linux Audio community, but after ten years, it feels like our best bet is to keep supporting open source projects and commericial products that do in kind instead of begging companies who have ignored us to start paying attention. At the same time, Steinberg recently GPL'd some of their code, so maybe opening up the dialogue with them is appropriate. I don't think Native Instruments is interested.

[glowrak guy]

In the most prominent examples of commercial vsts gone linux, the developers
from U-he, discoDSP and Modarrt have yet to publish any negative comments
about thei linux ports, The U-he linux-port forum has posts from quite a few customers,
and they seem independant, rather than assimilated. Overtone has resumed
some linux work,

The linux Bitwig and Mixbus daws will be pushed hard by linux Reaper (although
owning all three, leverages their unique strengths and content, to make
a versatile and powerful software studio)

I haven't noticed any slowdown in long-running linux projects, and I think
musicians used to great commercial software, will find a dozen linux apps
among hundreds, that will get heavy use.

There is also the phenomena of the mini pi computing scene that is exposing
quite a throng of tinkerers and developers to linux systems.
To me, the cup seems half full and rising, both in terms of quality
and quantity.

Native Instruments just concluded one of their yearly sales, and if
the numbers are not what they hope for, perhaps they will back away from
parts of their 'Native Access' registration system, that poses difficulties
for potential customers who prefer using linux.

I have read that there is a Kontakt user on the wine team, and recent wine releases
and vst wrappers, have enabled use of some great windows vsts,
that just sat there like toads in previous years, but now are running quite well.
Cheers

[GuntherT]

Interesting stuff. Here's hoping we see the continued expansion of software that runs on Linux.

[bunyi]

Why only those two manufacturers? Personally I'm not interested in any Steinborg stuff, but I would buy immediately native Chipsounds, Serum, some FabFilter or iZotope plugins. Please update the petition and add more manufacturers: Plogue, Xfer Records, FabFilter, iZotope, Cytomic, Ample Sound, IK Multimedia, Rob Papen, Spectrasonics, MeldaProduction, Cakewalk, Waves, Arturia, Synapse Audio, Image-Line, UVI, LennarDigital, AAS (Applied Acoustics Systems), Toontrack and others.

[asbak]

The game changer will be if NI ever port Komplete & Reaktor to Linux. Particularly Komplete. A well established soft sampler with a huge library collection will have a massive impact. Once that happens it'll create decent momentum for others to follow suit.

[jonetsu]

For what it's worth, if someone bought Zebra2, Hive, ACE, Bazille, Diva, and Repro-1, the factory and free user presets total about 30,000.

One thing though, u-he does not list Linux as being supported. The official status is beta. We all know otherwise as far as performance and reliability is concerned but, how many hundreds of customers will the lack of support and official statement deter ?

[glowrak guy]

Probably close to none, as the U-he products are cross platform, support is at hand
for whatever mac and win setups and licenses a customer has,
and any linux users will have researched the situation because of it's uniqueness,
and easily come to your conclusion,
that a purchase is not very risky.
Cheers

[glowrak guy]

Isn't this part of a monopoly position? If you want .... you can only do that with .... but not with .....
Can't this be forced?

Kontakt is not quite a monopoly. IK Multimedia, Cakewalk, UVI, Steinberg, and AirTech, among others,
are in competition, IK are soon to release their latest product, $99 for a few more days)
Ableton and Bitwig daws also have bundled sampler apps and sounds, Bitwig having a linux version.
There are a couple of ongoing sfz based sampler projects, and there exists an affordable collection of sounds,
in many formats and bundles, at http://www.digitalsoundfactory.com/

Perhaps Harrison should makeover some linuxsampler code, create and bundle a great sampling interface
as part of Mixbus, unless some license fiasco exists to prevent it.
Cheers

[jonetsu]

Still, the u-he Linux support is not official. Of course, after getting one synth, I think it was ACE and seeing how sturdy it is, I was sold. But there's no official statement. There's a thread on that this month though in u-he's forum at KVR:

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 7d2d57cd94

[chaocrator]

just my 1 cent.
in the world of capitalism, more or less free market, etc, signing petitions is just a wrong way to do/change something.

i'm even not asking why do you all want to buy & run exactly the same commercial stuff on linux, instead of expecting moar cool open source synths & plugins. if you really want all that commercial stuff, windoze is really cheap nowadays, at least comparing to the audio production software you want, and stable enough.

that's why, if i was steinberg or NI, i would not port any existing product to linux — it's just suboptimal. i also suspect that u-he synths were written with portability in mind from the start.

[jonetsu]

i'm even not asking why do you all want to buy & run exactly the same commercial stuff on linux, instead of expecting moar cool open source synths & plugins. if you really want all that commercial stuff, windoze is really cheap nowadays, at least comparing to the audio production software you want, and stable enough.

Without asking you are attracting comments. OBXD is one nice Open Source synth. Zynaddsubfx also. I haven't heard though an Open Source synth that has the vibrancy, the creativity, the expression, the nuances, the polished and highly functional UI, as say, Zebra2. Not to mention Diva. And not to mention the tens of people desinging creative soundsets for these synths. So it's a choice, as a creator. Art can be created with a block of black ink, water, and a brush. And it can also be created with thousands of colours. You can start creating art by making your own paints from stones you have crushed to a fine powder, or you can buy tubes. Tubes will let you paint right away. Eg. a synth without many people creating soundsets is not the same as one with a wide range of sounds.

If the only synth out there is one that makes C64 noises, then the expression of music made with it is limited. If the person likes chiptune music, perfect. If there are 1000 people liking chiptune music, good. Let's say that the range of love songs would be limited. Commercial synths like the ones offered by u-he have a lot of rich expression. These algorhythms are not found in Open Source synths. The dedication of a small team, with their bread and butter on the line, is not to be compared with folks writing code in the weekend and some evenings over three years. So the money goes there, to support this work. And in the case of u-he, they return the favor.

The fact is there are people out there supporting Linux with their products. They don't have to, but they do.

that's why, if i was steinberg or NI, i would not port any existing product to linux — it's just suboptimal. i also suspect that u-he synths were written with portability in mind from the start.

Writing with "portability in mind" is the only way to write software that stands the test of evolution and adaptation. Because it decouples components and enables unit testing.

I must say, proposing Windows to run software that is made for Linux is funny to say the least.