KX mini manual

Unofficial support for the KXStudio Linux distribution and applications.
More info at http://kxstudio.linuxaudio.org/

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wolftune
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Re: KX mini manual

Postby wolftune » Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:54 pm

These things should not go on the same page at all.
One is purely about live feedback but has no impact on the recorded result, the other is purely about the recorded result in the program. They are not practically related.

This sentence is totally confusing: "The primary way to reduce your JACK audio latency is to experiment with JACK's sample rate, buffer and periods/buffer settings. You should have already experimented to discover the optimum, xrun-free JACK settings for your hardware configuration before you try the following instructions to help further minimize JACK's latency."

It sounds like the loopback jackio_delay stuff will help with the issues that buffer deals with, but this isn't true at all.

Let's say I am playing an instrument, overdubbing with a recording. I only need to think about buffer if I am worried about listening to my own playing through the computer during recording. If I am listening to the actual instrument, then buffer is irrelevant, except I should just set it high to have no xruns. I still need the compensation with jack_iodelay so that my recording lines up exactly.

On the other hand, if I am playing guitar live through guitarix, I will want minimum buffer size in order to hear my playing with minimal latency, and I don't care about jack_iodelay at all because I'm not recording.

I think the jack_iodelay related section should be called "Compensating for loopback latency" or something, not "minimizing". It doesn't do any minimizing. It shifts the recordings in programs so that they line up. And it should be on a totally different page.

I made some edits, but I still think this should not be on a page called "minimizing latency." At the very least this needs to be clear. If the page was called "latency issues" then I'd be more comfortable. I could live with it all on one page still (though I don't like that) as long as the issues are clear.
Aaron Wolf
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http://wolftune.com

danboid
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Re: KX mini manual

Postby danboid » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:07 am

This JACK latency vs loopback latency reminds me of the whole Free vs Free problem we have in English with Free Software. I've also had a tough time writing these docs because F keeps on re-using his project names to refer to various things and I wish he wouldn't - it only causes confusion. I am of course referring to Cadence being both an app and a suite of tools and KXStudio referring to multiple things. Please don't do this in future F! One name per project/ app/ thing please! :)

I'm struggling to see the big issue you have with me using 'Minimize' instead of 'compensate for' personally but that doesn't mean we can't change it of course. I understand what jack_iodelay is doing and I don't think its incorrect to refer to using it as 'minimizing loopback latency' - you are reducing the loopback latency as much as possible, not eliminating it, hence minimizing.

I can see why you highlighted that sentence as confusing though. What it was meaning to say is "Don't try this until you have discovered some working JACK settings' basically.

I'll have a look at your edits now and see if F has done his edits yet. I'm not going to do any big edits to those last few pages until F has fixed any mess we've made.
Last edited by danboid on Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:36 am, edited 3 times in total.
Are you new to Linux Audio? This manual explains how to install KXStudio, set up and use JACK, mimimize latency, lists the best Linux AV apps and much more all in a concise and easy to understand format.

http://wiki.linuxaudio.org/wiki/kxstudio_manual

Thad E Ginathom
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Re: KX mini manual

Postby Thad E Ginathom » Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:07 am

This conversation is very useful. I'm sure the results will be distilled into the manual page.

Confusion about latency is hard to avoid, because, even before we consider sound, the word is used in different technological contexts by computer folk. The hifi people have further confused it by fussing about latency in playback because they love to have irrelevant things to fuss about. I think some of my hifi friends' confusion has rubbed off on me! :oops:

Let's say I am playing an instrument, overdubbing with a recording. I only need to think about buffer if I am worried about listening to my own playing through the computer during recording. If I am listening to the actual instrument, then buffer is irrelevant, except I should just set it high to have no xruns. I still need the compensation with jack_iodelay so that my recording lines up exactly.


Great! I thought I knew that ...but it seems I didn't really.

danboid
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Re: KX mini manual

Postby danboid » Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:38 am

I'm not entirely sure about the way its worded now wolftune has written "There is no way to reduce this “loopback” latency" just before we then give instructions on how to compensate for this latency!?! Surely this 'compensation' can just as well be called reducing or minmising, regardless of how it is achieved? I think this is at least as confusing as what it replaced. :/
Are you new to Linux Audio? This manual explains how to install KXStudio, set up and use JACK, mimimize latency, lists the best Linux AV apps and much more all in a concise and easy to understand format.

http://wiki.linuxaudio.org/wiki/kxstudio_manual

ToddMWorth
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Re: KX mini manual

Postby ToddMWorth » Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:18 am

I'm with wolf on this one. Sorry I hadn't had time to comment sooner but I noticed it too. Compensation is the word. I had wondered why the page said minimising latency, and then told me about compensation. Minimising latency is a whole totally different subject....

danboid
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Re: KX mini manual

Postby danboid » Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:40 am

OK. Due to my choice of phrasing causing so much upset the latest chapter has been renamed to

Latency compensation and xrun reduction tips

http://www.wiki.linuxmusicians.com/doku.php?id=latency

Is that better?
Are you new to Linux Audio? This manual explains how to install KXStudio, set up and use JACK, mimimize latency, lists the best Linux AV apps and much more all in a concise and easy to understand format.

http://wiki.linuxaudio.org/wiki/kxstudio_manual

wolftune
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Re: KX mini manual

Postby wolftune » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:38 pm

Dan, the ideas are now more clear, they are just unrelated. So it's two different topics lumped into something of a misc chapter, but I can live with that.

The reason it isn't "minimizing" is that the loopback latency is still there in the loopback. The software is adjusting things around it so that we get things lined up. In contrast, when we lower the buffer size, there is truly less latency in the system.

Furthermore, the compensation is an attempt to be precise. It eliminates the offset altogether aside from some degree of error (which could be either early or late). It's an accuracy thing in that case, not a minimizing thing.

I fully agree with you about how these wordings are confusing. Also, thank you so much for your writing this! I was not sure about how to handle it myself. Your instructions were nice, clear and simple! I feel much more confident about how to do this and how to guide others now.
Aaron Wolf
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http://wolftune.com

ToddMWorth
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Re: KX mini manual

Postby ToddMWorth » Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:07 pm

wolftune wrote:Also, thank you so much for your writing this!


Yeh dude totally!!!

danboid
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Re: KX mini manual

Postby danboid » Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:00 pm

Thanks wolftune (for the edits and suggestions too) and Todd!

I'm looking forward to see what F changes/corrects!
Are you new to Linux Audio? This manual explains how to install KXStudio, set up and use JACK, mimimize latency, lists the best Linux AV apps and much more all in a concise and easy to understand format.

http://wiki.linuxaudio.org/wiki/kxstudio_manual

danboid
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Re: KX mini manual

Postby danboid » Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:57 am

I have updated both the JACK connection instructions and the screenshot within the 'Creating a simple LADISH studio using Claudia' chapter so that qtractors outputs are connected to the Hardware Playback ports, for completeness

http://www.wiki.linuxmusicians.com/doku ... dia_studio
Are you new to Linux Audio? This manual explains how to install KXStudio, set up and use JACK, mimimize latency, lists the best Linux AV apps and much more all in a concise and easy to understand format.

http://wiki.linuxaudio.org/wiki/kxstudio_manual

danboid
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Re: KX mini manual

Postby danboid » Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:29 pm

I have added a new xrun reduction tip - Avoid realtime resampling

http://www.wiki.linuxmusicians.com/doku.php?id=latency
Are you new to Linux Audio? This manual explains how to install KXStudio, set up and use JACK, mimimize latency, lists the best Linux AV apps and much more all in a concise and easy to understand format.

http://wiki.linuxaudio.org/wiki/kxstudio_manual

danboid
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Re: KX mini manual

Postby danboid » Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:41 pm

New chapter done - wineASIO and REAPER

http://www.wiki.linuxmusicians.com/doku ... and_reaper
Are you new to Linux Audio? This manual explains how to install KXStudio, set up and use JACK, mimimize latency, lists the best Linux AV apps and much more all in a concise and easy to understand format.

http://wiki.linuxaudio.org/wiki/kxstudio_manual

wolftune
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Re: KX mini manual

Postby wolftune » Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:15 pm

Looks good overall, I might do some minor edits. Note: all the WineHQ stuff uses "Wine" with the capital W.

What do you think of including reference to other audio Wine software in the same chapter, such as reference to Windows VST support? If brief, that makes sense to me, whereas maybe its own chapter if we want more depth.
Aaron Wolf
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danboid
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Re: KX mini manual

Postby danboid » Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:22 pm

Sorry Wolftune, I'm really not keen on covering ANY other Windows apps or plugins in the manual at all. Whats there already is 100% all I wanted to cover re wine, wineasio and REAPER - which is the only Windows app KXStudio includes, right? What we can do is include a link to Wine appdb and whatever the best resource for Linux/wine plugin compatibility is, maybe.

I have yet to do the recommended Linux apps chapter. We are trying to encourage and promote the use of FLOSS software here, of course and I have explained why REAPER gets distro inclusion and special treatment amongst alternatives.

As for Wine, we should capitalise it if thats what its devs do, yes.
Last edited by danboid on Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Are you new to Linux Audio? This manual explains how to install KXStudio, set up and use JACK, mimimize latency, lists the best Linux AV apps and much more all in a concise and easy to understand format.

http://wiki.linuxaudio.org/wiki/kxstudio_manual

wolftune
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Re: KX mini manual

Postby wolftune » Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:26 pm

Ok, I'm with you overall. I do think the capitalization will be good.
Aaron Wolf
Music teacher, scholar
http://wolftune.com


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