will we lose our apps to Mac and Windows eventually??

[brummer]

I'm wondering about the fact that nobody has brought up the argument that there are benefits if an application is not only targeted at linux. You have a lot more people who can test your application or translate it, write documentation or write new features.. So maybe we should ask "what do we gain if an application attracts more users on other platforms" ? .

Hi mauser, oh, I said it before in my broken English .

if you develop cross platform open source code, then you will focus on the platform were you get most feedback and suggestions, that's natural.

So to me Qtractor and LV2 development is the heart of Linux Audio, not Ardour (at least not until it has midi). Qtractor is strictly Linux centered, so is the LV2 standard.

Nope, the hart of Linux Pro Audio is jack, I think that is absolutely clear
That's the application witch transport the beat.
Qtractor or Ardour and LV2 can be the brain or the Stomach, for example, but the position of the heard isn't available.

[funkmuscle]

Hi!

I'm wondering about the fact that nobody has brought up the argument that there are benefits if an application is not only targeted at linux. You have a lot more people who can test your application or translate it, write documentation or write new features... And those are real benefits for the users, not only for the developers(like money..). So maybe we should ask "what do we gain if an application attracts more users on other platforms" ?
- Sebastian

mauser, that's true but we then get catering to those OS's first... I've seen that with Ardour, you've already explained H2 windows snapshot release with the undo, the LMMS issues..
it just seems that once other platforms get involved, they're catered to.. But that's away from what I was asking. I just wanted to know if folks thought that we may lose our apps to the donating platforms who also give more feedback.

[Louigi Verona]

Nope, the hart of Linux Pro Audio is jack, I think that is absolutely clear

Well, this is true, but this is the same as saying that ASIO is the heart of Windows Audio. (Yes, JACK is much more than what ASIO is, but that does not change my point.) JACK is a utility, not a program.

I would agree with AutoStatic here - Windows has much-much-much more users. So does Mac when it comes to music. It's not even a question of money, the devs might just get contacted more by those users and they naturally respond.

Will we lose our apps to Mac and Windows? I think it is highly unlikely.

[funkmuscle]

I can't remember which dev I contacted on this but brummer did explain this to me once... he said that because it's open source, anyone has access to the code and it can be ported to other platforms if A WINDOWS OR MAC DEV wanna take on the challenge.
That's cool but that is not the case here... These apps were created for linux on linux. the code is open so Mac and Windows devs has access to them, so why isn't there a branch for windows or mac? Why are the linux devs helping more with the other platforms? Shouldn't they just be advising to devs of the other platforms? I could be wrong here that's why I'm asking for clarity. I keep reading that these devs don't have time to develop their apps(I don't mean the ones with family and living duties) yet they're helping on the other platforms... That's just my confusion and that scares me because I love recording on this OS and I remember Ardour in it's alpha state and H2..

Someone had to have ported it to windows or mac so why doesn't that someone continue on it instead of the linux devs now catering to the masses. Does that make sense???
So let me rephrase my question, will we lose our devs to the bigger platforms then? If it seems that the more input comes from other platforms and the source is open, so more code gets ported and the other platform users likes free like we do, so according to what I'm hearing here, we maybe screwed..

[brummer]

Well, this is true, but this is the same as saying that ASIO is the heart of Windows Audio. (Yes, JACK is much more than what ASIO is, but that does not change my point.) JACK is a utility, not a program.

lol, a utility, not the core application of Linux audio, . . .
Nothing to say on this .

Why are the linux devs helping more with the other platforms?

Because it's funny to do it, it's a Challenge to solve, with a open Mind there is no need for a Border between different OS's.

[GMaq]

funkmuscle,

"Developer fatigue" will kill Linux Audio much faster than porting to other OS's ever could, look at the graveyard at sourceforge of promising applications that have been abandoned. It is fun to develop a project and get recognized for it but the fun wears off after a little while. The biggest problem in Linux is the ridiculous notion of "free" software having any correlation at all to money. You (or I) can't expect someone to work day and night to provide an application and then continue to maintain and improve it and receive nothing in return. To paraphrase Louigi Verona the "freedom" is to decide what it's worth to you not to decide that it's worth nothing at all! JackLab should have been a big warning sign to all Linux user's that if you don't support an excellent Audio distro (and the applications within it) it will die or fade away.

Far too many Linux users are freeloading and not doing their part to sustain development of the projects they love. An old adage says "there is no such thing as a free lunch" and there isn't. In my own experience with AV Linux less than 1 in 5000 users donate. Out of 10-15,000 average accesses per month of the ISO less than 3 users donate. Ubuntu is wonderful but it has created the impression that because it's founder wants to give software (or more importantly development time) away for free that everyone should want to...the truth is everyone can't afford to and not everyone wants to or should want to. I applaud linuxDSP for going commercial with his plugins, after setting the Linux plugin world on it's ear with unprecedented quality and stability and then very nicely asking for any donation amount he quickly learned that people just won't pay unless they have to. Sad...but true

There are only two ways things can go from here...more projects in the sourceforge graveyard or application developers start getting treated fairly by the end-user...if they don't they will either go away or go Commercial. Even 5 or 10 dollars per user to a few projects a year would make a tremendous difference. Let me clarify that I believe it's not as much about profits as it is about appreciation.

Just an opinion but I think this is a greater threat to the projects we love than porting to other OS's ever could be.

[Louigi Verona]

lol, a utility, not the core application of Linux audio

I think my point was very well clear and valid too. you can lol as much as you want.

I applaud linuxDSP for going commercial with his plugins, after setting the Linux plugin world on it's ear and then very nicely asking for any donation amount he quickly learned that people just won't pay unless they have to. Sad...but true

I don't applaud linuxDSP. I cannot applaud a developer who tries to lure people into using proprietary software in the name of "getting something back".
And the reason he did not get any donations is not because people won't pay unless they have to (many examples have shown this to be not true, like the Humble Indie Bundle), but because possibly the amount of musicians on GNU/Linux is very small and they are donating quite a substantial amount of money monthly to other projects. I don't know how he set the process up, but there are plenty of reasons people do not donate and it is not because they "don't have to".
He chose to close linuxDSP, I choose not to use them.

[autostatic]

These apps were created for linux on linux.

Who says so? This contradicts with what you're about to say next:

the code is open so Mac and Windows devs has access to them, so why isn't there a branch for windows or mac?

The code is open, freely available, and also portable to other platforms/OS's. So if you choose to release your software as open source software you also choose not to develop for one specific platform/OS. If you want to keep a certain app for your own platform you have to come up with a custom license that states the app may not be ported to another platform other than GNU/Linux. This would mean exclusion from all major distro's.

Why are the linux devs helping more with the other platforms?

Because those platforms have more users, more demands.

Shouldn't they just be advising to devs of the other platforms?

Devs of other platforms? You mean the devs who port an open source app to a certain platform? In most cases those are the main devs of the project itself.

I could be wrong here that's why I'm asking for clarity. I keep reading that these devs don't have time to develop their apps(I don't mean the ones with family and living duties) yet they're helping on the other platforms... That's just my confusion and that scares me because I love recording on this OS and I remember Ardour in it's alpha state and H2..

Helping on the other platform is to me almost equal to developing your app. A bug in Ardour is a bug in Ardour, no matter which platform. And of course, there might be platform specific issues, but those issues don't take all of the devs their time? Correct me if I'm wrong here.

Someone had to have ported it to windows or mac so why doesn't that someone continue on it instead of the linux devs now catering to the masses. Does that make sense???

If it's the main devs who did the porting, yes it does.

So let me rephrase my question, will we lose our devs to the bigger platforms then?

No I don't think so. Hydrogen is a perfect example for this. If Hydrogen would've stuck to GNU/Linux it would've died short after the moment it's main dev slowed down development. Luckily some devs, with Windows development knowledge too, jumped in and started working on new functionality and fixing bugs.

[StudioDave]

There's a LOT of confusion in this discussion.

First, funkmuscle, you should relax. Ardour devs are not "catering" to the Mac. Cross-platform development is a very smart practice, unless you intend to limit your potential market to the handful of Linux audio enthusiasts who populate this forum and a few others.

Next, Louigi, a utility *is* a program. Perhaps you meant to say that it isn't an application a la a sequencer or text editor ? Any software that does anything is a program.

I do agree with funkmuscle that people should donate more to their best-loved app developers.

The noise re: linuxDSP is just that: noise. Buy 'em or don't. Btw, he makes free versions available too. And as far as I can tell he's gettng paid for his work. I'm a registered user, and I know of others on the KVR and Ardour forums.

Re: the reference to the graveyard of deceased and abandoned apps at SourceForge: So what ? All that proves is that a lot of developers have eyes bigger than their stomachs. Seriously though, take a closer look at the status of most of those applications. Many never get beyond the pre-alpha stages, and it's not because there's no money. It's because no-one's interested enough in the projects to keep them going.

Re: Gmaq's comments: I'll tell you what I told the JackLab guys: If you got into this thing to make money you're just wrong from the start. Not that it can't be done, but you'll have to work ten times harder to find a workable revenue model than if you were developing on a platform bound by proprietary restrictions. And btw, there are other reasons JackLab died that had nothing to do with money.

Incidentaly, I think the history of Hydrogen 's development is also considerably different than indicated in this thread. IIRC after Comix left off his dedicated development it was further developed for Linux before any Windows devs joined the team.

Really, you guys should all relax from this topic. I've been using and promoting Linux audio software since 1996, and from my POV things are a hell of a lot better now than they were then, in every way imaginable. The future's looking good here at Studio Dave.

[funkmuscle]

Thanx DP for wrapping things up.
I started to use linux in 1998 and I do remember how bad it was but I was happy to see the development.

So my question is answered, "will we lose our apps to Mac and Windows eventually??"

[mauser]

Incidentaly, I think the history of Hydrogen 's development is also considerably different than indicated in this thread. IIRC after Comix left off his dedicated development it was further developed for Linux before any Windows devs joined the team.

To make this more clearer: Even now there is no dedicated windows developer in our small "team". There were people who wanted to help us with the windows build, but none of them stayed in the long run
It's true that there would be time for other things if we would not work on windows. But hey, in the end we're doing those things that are challenging to us and which we enjoy.. it's our free-time that we spend It doesn't work when people say that those apps should be focused on linux and the main development should take place on linux. The only way to improve the development on linux is to DO development on linux.

[Louigi Verona]

Studio Dave: yeah, I meant that it is not a DAW or app that is doing the actual music making. JACK is an environment, a low latency server, but it is not making music itself and we were talking about music making apps. JACK is more an enabling app, so this is why I said what I said, meaning it is a bit offtopic mentioning JACK. I hope my point was understood.

[brummer]

In my own experience with AV Linux less than 1 in 5000 users donate.

I can confirm this numbers for guitarix but for a simple user feedback instead donate. I have lately calculate my feedback rate and comes to 0,08% of the source users, didn't know how match distributed binary's comes on top of this calculation .

and we were talking about music making apps.

did we ? split we ? or do you do only ? Sorry, I cant find the point were that happened.

As a side note, jack is available for windows and mac since long time now,. . .
and without jack, I promise you wouldn't found a single linux pro audio application.

[GMaq]

@StudioDave,

I have great respect for your wisdom and long history with this topic,

Let me clarify, I'm speaking as BOTH a maintainer and and end-user here, I have no illusion of 'making money' however I do see a tilted playing field and think that a 'leveling out' of resources (including money) would garner more respect from the end-user and show appreciation to the developer in a balanced and productive exchange. My imagery of the graveyard at sourceforge was taken from one of your articles a while back BTW..lol. I was referring to promising projects that were more than just pre-alpha thumbnail sketches in all fairness. Lastly I am aware of the other contributing factors in JackLab's demise, however I still believe more end-user appreciation (not only financial) could have went a long way for everyone involved.

Just my $.02 for clarification, this topic caught me in the middle of an all-nighter at my 'paying' job and touched a nerve at 3:00am...

[StudioDave]

@Louigi - Understood. And I agree, JACK is not what most people would call an application. I also understand your points re: some deficiencies in Linux sequencers that are not a problem with their Windows counterparts. Unfortunately the technical issues are beyond me, and what seems more or less easily possible with VST/VSTi plugins in Windows is somehow difficult or impossible to do with the existing Linux audio plugin APIs. I need to do more research, perhaps it's already possible and I'm missing how it's done.

@Gmaq - Sorry, G, I didn't mean to imply that your motivations were pecuniary. I doubt you'd get into this distro thing if you thought you were going to get rich from it.

I just burnt the latest AVlinux ISO and plan to give it a whirl after lessons tonight. You're getting rave press from some AVlinux users, I need to check it out for myself.

Best,

dp