Primer on kernels. distro and repos

What other apps and distros do you use to round out your studio?

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Primer on kernels. distro and repos

Post by Fmajor7add9 »

Hi, new reader and user checking in and very happy to find a www corner like this so thanks everyone for the effort.

I'm in the middle of distrohopping from Solus to something leaner and have tried different pre-made distros in Virtualbox and from USB to get started. Found most of them in threads around here and it's been fun to check out. At this moment a debian minimal based spin is the most appealing option, also to learn some basic Linux foo along the way.

My main question and confusion at this stage is re. choice of kernels. I understand some users don't need a rt or low latency kernel while others trim their system with one and will leave that question to another time and thread. But what is the relationship between distro and kernel? Are certain distros built in a way that's only compatible with certain kernels or can any kernel be built from source into any distro?

Like the custom kernel in AV Linux f.ex., is that compiled for that exclusively or can it also be added by repo or source to another distro?

Or when MX/Antix Linux includes Liquorix in their repos, is the purpose then for the users to be able to install it with a few clicks like any other app (and automate the GRUB entry edit)? Or do they also edit or customize it against their codebase?

Any clarification would be very much apppreciated! :)
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Re: Primer on kernels. distro and repos

Post by turbidh20 »

I can only comment for my own situation running Arch and I'm using the stock core repo kernel (which they try to keep as close to upstream as possible), running Jack at 48KHz (48/3) for 3 msec latency. This kernel is running at 300 ticks. I've only been using Jack for a few weeks but it's rock solid so far.

I actually tried the linux-rt kernel but was getting system freezes. I used to compile the linux-ck kernel which runs at 1000 ticks but that was some time ago. I may just recompile the stock kernel as apparently 1000 ticks is recommended for MIDI use. Compiling kernels with Arch is an absolute doddle with the PKGBUILD system (check the AUR, I think everything's covered kernel-wise).

I should also point out I run a fairly lean system (that's the beauty of Arch), no DE, just Compiz WM. I switch to JWM non-composited WM sometimes (e.g. for certain games) but haven't needed to when using Ardour. Also, no Pulseaudio, just ALSA with Loopback covering non Jack audio.
Arch Linux (i7-4790k/GTX970); UMC204HD; MPK Mini MKII; Jack2 (QjackCtl) & Ardour/Mixbus
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Re: Primer on kernels. distro and repos

Post by khz »

The kernel is independent of the distribution.
Yes each distribution (or you) builds its own kernel but the kernel is Linux with all its modules and so on, the software is the GNU, everywhere.

~Modular
- The kernel should ideally support exactly your hardware and your application purposes.
- Distribution: most distributions come with an RT kernel - installable via the package manager.
- Desktop: As lean as possible, few services, ..., and as comfortable as bearable.
- Software: ~Repositories.
. . . FZ - Does humor belongs in Music?
. . GNU/LINUX@AUDIO ~ /Wiki $ Howto.Info && GNU/Linux Debian installing >> Linux Audio Workstation LAW
  • I don't care about the freedom of speech because I have nothing to say.
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Re: Primer on kernels. distro and repos

Post by Fmajor7add9 »

thanks for commenting
turbidh20 wrote:This kernel is running at 300 ticks.....
..apparently 1000 ticks is recommended for MIDI use
interesting, didn't know about ticks at all
turbidh20 wrote:I actually tried the linux-rt kernel but was getting system freezes. I used to compile the linux-ck kernel which runs at 1000 ticks but that was some time ago.
were they from the Arch core repo as well?
turbidh20 wrote: Compiling kernels with Arch is an absolute doddle with the PKGBUILD system...
...no DE, just Compiz WM. I switch to JWM non-composited WM sometimes
looks like I'm ending up with openbox/i3/dwm Debian this time but will check out Compiz WM and JWM on the way
turbidh20 wrote: Also, no Pulseaudio, just ALSA with Loopback covering non Jack audio.
read somewhere that certain Firefox builds are Pulseaudio only, did you circumvent that and have you come across other non-ALSA apps?
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Re: Primer on kernels. distro and repos

Post by Fmajor7add9 »

khz wrote:The kernel is independent of the distribution.
Yes each distribution (or you) builds its own kernel but the kernel is Linux with all its modules and so on, the software is the GNU, everywhere.

~Modular
- The kernel should ideally support exactly your hardware and your application purposes.
- Distribution: most distributions come with an RT kernel - installable via the package manager.
- Desktop: As lean as possible, few services, ..., and as comfortable as bearable.
- Software: ~Repositories.
thanks khz, very helpful
(IIRC from way back reading the GNU/Linux genesis stories Stallman and co had the GCC compiler and Linus the kernel.)

Are you switching between kernels depending on tasks at hand? I noticed, when pulling in a realtime kernel from apt (antiX) that it brought something like 360mb of 'stuff' with it which seems like a lot on a 8-900mb base image.

Is there a build argument vs. repo'ing f.ex. Ardour? If I build it locally will it be better trimmed against the specific hardware of the host? And still easily updatable?

Sorry for wild shots, it's just level 1 stuff around here right now. :)
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Re: Primer on kernels. distro and repos

Post by Fmajor7add9 »

note to all/self

Found this ref from AV Linux Glenn about their RT speedo kernel being built into MX:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=19645&p=104261&hilit=kernel#p104261

from their release notes:
We try to stick as closely as is reasonably possible to vanilla Linux kernel sources from kernel.org. The only code we add/change is:
1. aufs (Another Union File System) support - used for live booting and remastering:
http://aufs.sourceforge.net/
2. The Real Time Linux patch set:
http://www.spinics.net/lists/linux-rt-users/
3. Support for a few additional sound cards (varies by kernel version)
they share it by stable or stretch deb repo - is that debian compatible only or Ubuntu as well?
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Re: Primer on kernels. distro and repos

Post by khz »

I always boot the RT kernel that I installed via the package manager of my distribution.
You may not always need fully realtime. 42
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. . GNU/LINUX@AUDIO ~ /Wiki $ Howto.Info && GNU/Linux Debian installing >> Linux Audio Workstation LAW
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Re: Primer on kernels. distro and repos

Post by turbidh20 »

Fmajor7add9 wrote:thanks for commenting
You're welcome :)
Fmajor7add9 wrote:
turbidh20 wrote:I actually tried the linux-rt kernel but was getting system freezes. I used to compile the linux-ck kernel which runs at 1000 ticks but that was some time ago.
were they from the Arch core repo as well?
No, from the AUR (Arch User Repository). It's pretty simple to install stuff but you'd obviously have to be familiar with Arch first. You don't actually need an -rt kernel anyway, just the bog standard preemptive kernel.
Fmajor7add9 wrote:
turbidh20 wrote: Compiling kernels with Arch is an absolute doddle with the PKGBUILD system...
...no DE, just Compiz WM. I switch to JWM non-composited WM sometimes
looks like I'm ending up with openbox/i3/dwm Debian this time but will check out Compiz WM and JWM on the way
If you're new to Linux I would stick with your current plans, the openbox/i3/dwm route sounds usefully lightweight. Once you're settled then you can experiment. I've probably just given you confusing info if you're new to this!
Fmajor7add9 wrote:
turbidh20 wrote: Also, no Pulseaudio, just ALSA with Loopback covering non Jack audio.
read somewhere that certain Firefox builds are Pulseaudio only, did you circumvent that and have you come across other non-ALSA apps?
I use Pale Moon browser now but when I occasionally use Firefox audio works - just ALSA. I have used builds of Firefox in the past that were Pulseaudio only and ran that through "apulse" at the time and that worked.

Just have a go, you'll be fine. The options are numerous and there are many ways to get where you want. There's plenty of help around too. Good luck!
Arch Linux (i7-4790k/GTX970); UMC204HD; MPK Mini MKII; Jack2 (QjackCtl) & Ardour/Mixbus
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Re: Primer on kernels. distro and repos

Post by Fmajor7add9 »

Thanks! Great to get pick up some nuggets from the seniors who boldly went ahead:)

I've used Linux on/off for years but never for audio inputs and until recently neither for video. The LAW spin-your-own process is really fun and interesting and for some reason something I never got around to earlier despite using some rather sloppy hardware.
Ended up with Vagrant and Ansible tonight to automate things so it's a good learning exp already

br
/fm7a9
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Re: Primer on kernels. distro and repos

Post by Michael Willis »

Totally off-topic, but your location of "Might be moving to Montana soon" caught my eye. Just a few weeks ago I took my family on a road trip, part of which involved visited some friends in Montana. There were some great things to see there; best of luck on your possible impending relocation!
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Re: Primer on kernels. distro and repos

Post by Fmajor7add9 »

Michael Willis wrote:Totally off-topic, but your location of "Might be moving to Montana soon" caught my eye. Just a few weeks ago I took my family on a road trip, part of which involved visited some friends in Montana. There were some great things to see there; best of luck on your possible impending relocation!
hehe :D

Would love to go! It's quite a ride but I'm gonna find me a horse. Soon.
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Re: Primer on kernels. distro and repos

Post by khz »

OT2
Hi Zappa Fan.

Want to listen to Zappa 24/7? Here it is! The stream's up all day. Just click on the playback button and get the party started!
https://www.norbert.de/index.php?id=10
:roll:
. . . FZ - Does humor belongs in Music?
. . GNU/LINUX@AUDIO ~ /Wiki $ Howto.Info && GNU/Linux Debian installing >> Linux Audio Workstation LAW
  • I don't care about the freedom of speech because I have nothing to say.
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Re: Primer on kernels. distro and repos

Post by Fmajor7add9 »

khz wrote:OT2
Hi Zappa Fan.

Want to listen to Zappa 24/7? Here it is! The stream's up all day. Just click on the playback button and get the party started!
https://www.norbert.de/index.php?id=10
:roll:
ah you lovely Zappafreaks, how great is that. He was murdering the Tequila (!?) theme in the intro to City Of Tiny Lights (1979 03 19 Brest FR) as I pressed play. Geil!

Is it a bootleg collection running from your server? With no copyright laywer letters in the whipping post?

/OT3
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Re: Primer on kernels. distro and repos

Post by khz »

Freak out - Not from my server but FZ 27/7/365 for decades. It's always fun to listen to the Zappers. Feel free. :-D
HF@LM.org
. . . FZ - Does humor belongs in Music?
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Re: Primer on kernels. distro and repos

Post by Fmajor7add9 »

OK, so another note to self/world/forum geekheads.

It's been a fun fun ride digging deeper than what's-my-next-distro-gonna-be.

Coming from the OP kernel puzzlement to reading about debootstraps (it's a thing, 1000s of businesses use it, seriously), frugal persistence, squashed filesystems, chroot, openbox, UEFI, vagrant, ansible, FAI & grml, great stuff. And Linux being Linux there are tons of guys out there sharing their personal setup and scripts, as in just run ./install.sh and you have Buster with all your favourite apps in 30 minutes type of stuff.

khzs super detailed Linux Audio Workstation LAW was a good starter so thanks again for that direction. When reading a cookbook like his I'm itching to get to learn enough ansible to automate all distro builds forever and spend way less time setting up, trimming, reconfiguring. But you have to know what you're doing first of course, whether typing it in in a terminal or a .yaml playbook.

https://www.slax.org is pretty amazing as a base distro, and its skeleton can be build into any distro (AFAIK) with https://www.linux-live.org. Imagine not only separating / and home but also /bin or wherever the meaty parts are, SLAX can pull them in and out of a running system on the fly, from a single module bundle, compressed into one file. Its base is 275mb with openbox and chromium and a few get started apps, idle RAM usage is 120mb! To pull it and your bundle of audio apps into RAM is also super simple so great great work from a one-man distro.

Whether using a compressed filesystem for realtime audio is practical remains to be seen and perhaps heard. If not MX Linux and antiX offer the same ('frugal with dynamic or static persistence' in their lingo) plus a traditional install to disk of the same image. Not as flex as SLAX but do-able and a great and lively community around it.

- all for know, take care of beats and bits and each other

FYI link storm share from notes so far:

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReducingDiskFootprint
https://wiki.debian.org/ReduceDebian

## debootstrappers united

### Creating Ubuntu and Debian container base images, the old and simple way
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLFH4Ov6bJQ

### DenOS
https://github.com/korbendallaskoop/denos

### mkeznixOS
https://sourceforge.net/p/eznixos/discu ... /dc6288f6/
Debian 10 Buster Install & mkeznixOS - Make Your Own eznixOS https://youtu.be/Q6I4nm69PLY

### BitJam/Build-iso
https://github.com/BitJam/Build-iso

### Tripcodes Auto Ricing Debian Script
https://gitlab.com/tripcodeq7/tripcodes ... ree/master

## FAI
https://fai-project.org/
It can be used for creating custom disk images used in virtual machines or on a cloud-computing platform. using the FAI.me build service.

### grml

grml-live provides the build system for creating a Grml and Debian based Linux
Live-CD. The build system is based on FAI

FAI gives you the flexibility to choose the packages you would like to include on your very own Linux Live-CD without having to deal with all the details of a build process.

### arcolinuxb
https://arcolinuxb.com/

We are creating a minimal version of the ArcoLinuxB desktops.
You save around 700MB in iso size or in applications.
You decide if you want even less applications or more.

### arch spinner
bottom up build
http://valleycat.org/linux/arch-usb.html?i=1
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