In what way modular approach is limiting

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raboof
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Re: In what way modular approach is limiting

Post by raboof »

AutoStatic wrote:If you like the monolithic approach, you can jump high and low but since GNU/Linux is like built on modularity it will never happen.
I don't see that. Indeed, the modular approach is currently Linux' strength and focus - but that doesn't mean an 'IME' couldn't attract its own userbase. Not supporting JACK is an obvious limitation - but not a capital one if you're going the full IME route. JACK support would probably help acceptance, but is not sine-qua-non.

That said, I'm also in the 'modular' camp myself, using LMMS nor Ardour and being very happy with JACK :).
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Re: In what way modular approach is limiting

Post by spm_gl »

I don't quite get this discussion on a new automation standard. We've got Midi, and we've got OSC, and we can even convert between the two. The only open matter is getting developers to implement proper midi mapping of parameters, as hardware synth manufacturers have been doing since the 80's. Then you can use Midi to automate your synth, be it inside an IME or using a modular approach.
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Re: In what way modular approach is limiting

Post by raboof »

spm_gl wrote:We've got Midi, and we've got OSC (..). The only open matter is getting developers to implement proper midi mapping of parameters (...). Then you can use Midi to automate your synth, be it inside an IME or using a modular approach.
Agreed entirely.

Arguably 'OSC routing' could be integrated in QJackCtl (or another patchbay) to make this more integrated.
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Re: In what way modular approach is limiting

Post by roaldz »

I'd like to see LMMS getting jack support: At least then it fits in my audio config. I have a firewire audio interface which simply only works with jack.
I'm a fan of both approaches btw (modular and integrated). What's really cool about LMMS is that you can create controllers to control (for instance with an LFO) ANY parameter in LMMS! This is not possible with the modular approach, because not every single parameter or control in "audio application X" is exposed in MIDI/OSC/Something else.

Btw, you can use Seq24 to sequence MIDI CC's to ZynAddSubFX, which supports some CC's like filter cutoff and resonance, panning, FM gain.....
Another pity:
When using a session handler like lash all individual programs are restored when loading a project, but the actual midi port names differ from the saved state, so all my Seq24 midi outputs aren't patched correctly.

Q:
Is there a way for me to use LMMS with my firewire interface without using LMMS's jack "support"?
Is there a way to save a Hydrogen/Seq24/ZynAdd project saved correctly?
Is there a way to have ZynAdd's LFO's/Delay times synced to the JACK BPM?
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Re: In what way modular approach is limiting

Post by studio32 »

@roalz, try ladish, it works better then lash imo.
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Re: In what way modular approach is limiting

Post by spm_gl »

roaldz wrote:What's really cool about LMMS is that you can create controllers to control (for instance with an LFO) ANY parameter in LMMS! This is not possible with the modular approach, because not every single parameter or control in "audio application X" is exposed in MIDI/OSC/Something else.
Ardour for instance allows you to bind nearly any control to a midi controller by ctrl-middleclick. AMS has a very extensive midi binding. And the "integrated" approach is no different. Before introducing "instrument" tracks, VST instruments in Cubase were controlled by midi tracks (The new instrument track is actually a midi track with a designated VSTi).
A complete midi implementation is also needed for hardware controllers. In the end, Midi doesn't care whether it's sent by a keyboard, a box with knobs, or a sequencer.
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Re: In what way modular approach is limiting

Post by raboof »

roaldz wrote:What's really cool about LMMS is that you can create controllers to control (for instance with an LFO) ANY parameter in LMMS! This is not possible with the modular approach, because not every single parameter or control in "audio application X" is exposed in MIDI/OSC/Something else.
This is not really a 'modular vs IME' thing: there are IME-style applications that lack such flexibility in wiring up controllers, and 'modular' applications that do support it - and vice-versa.
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Re: In what way modular approach is limiting

Post by Havoc »

If you like the monolithic approach, you can jump high and low but since GNU/Linux is like built on modularity it will never happen.
I wish it would be true, but as I see it Ardour is going that way.
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Re: In what way modular approach is limiting

Post by studio32 »

Havoc wrote:
If you like the monolithic approach, you can jump high and low but since GNU/Linux is like built on modularity it will never happen.
I wish it would be true, but as I see it Ardour is going that way.
Ardour with LV2 plugins are nice, I'm not 'against' this approach.
But I also want to use my software in a modular way, my own setup, not bounded by one application, with a certain amount of CPU, memory needed, or with some features it has (not)...

With Ladish I can build my own DAW with Lv2rack, non-daw, non-mixer, zynaddsubfx etc. This is just great!

Only thing I hope, better Jack Transport (with looping).
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Re: In what way modular approach is limiting

Post by Louigi Verona »

raboof wrote:
roaldz wrote:What's really cool about LMMS is that you can create controllers to control (for instance with an LFO) ANY parameter in LMMS! This is not possible with the modular approach, because not every single parameter or control in "audio application X" is exposed in MIDI/OSC/Something else.
This is not really a 'modular vs IME' thing: there are IME-style applications that lack such flexibility in wiring up controllers, and 'modular' applications that do support it - and vice-versa.
On a fundamental level it is a 'modular vs IME' thing. As I pointed out before in this thread, you can never guarantee that the app you need will support it. In an IME while indeed for a time such functionality may not be implemented, but in order to do that you need only one developer. Not a hundred of independent people with independent projects.
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Re: In what way modular approach is limiting

Post by Louigi Verona »

But I also want to use my software in a modular way, my own setup, not bounded by one application, with a certain amount of CPU, memory needed, or with some features it has (not)...

With Ladish I can build my own DAW with Lv2rack, non-daw, non-mixer, zynaddsubfx etc. This is just great!
I would once again non-violently point out that building your own DAW suggests that you are doing pretty specific music. Because it is extremely difficult to find what a regular DAW, say, Ableton Live or FL Studio cannot do for a regular musician. In fact, just out of curiosity, I would love to hear what exactly any known IME cannot do for you.

Modular approach here is for many reasons, but my opinion has not changed - I strongly believe that modular approach is flexible, but its flexibility is really needed only for a very specific, rare setup. For people who do normal music I think there were many occasions when they just wanted it to work in an IME way. The whole argument of saying that modular approach is so flexible is a bit weird to me. What kind of music requires so much flexibility?

Understand me correctly. I am inspired by the modularity in itself. I just do not see why it is so important. I maybe wrong and miss the obvious. I would love to hear how musicians here use the modular approach and in what way its flexibility allows to do something a good solid IME of the pro class cannot do.

I mean, the community of musicians on Linux is much smaller than the community of musicians on proprietary systems. But somehow the modular approach does not appear there in a way it appeared on Linux. And somehow everyone manages with those Abletons and Cubases and FL Studios. See what I mean?
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Re: In what way modular approach is limiting

Post by Pablo »

The thing I like about the modular approach is that it is not overkilling and that it is so flexible, yes, why not. Sometimes I just want a tuner, a guitar virtual rack and a convolution reverb to play guitar and sing along with a bit of reverb.

So I have a ladish studio named guit-voc, with tuneit, rakarrack and jc_gui. I just click on laditray and I am done. I check the guitar tuning and I am ready to play and sing. I am ready in less than one minute. Latency is unnoticeable. A good number of different programs are integrating fantastically here. Jack is the king of linux audio.

Of course, ladish is not perfect and you are right when you say it doesn't yet work as expected with every jack-aware app but I think we will end up (at last!) with a good and user-friendly linux audio integration program. Be ladish or another one.

That said, I think ardour will be a better program with MIDI tracks than not. But I prefer a good MIDI sequencer, a good notation editor, a good drum sequencer... than an IME that has all of these parts but they are not as good as specialized apps, as long as they can be easily integrated.

An IME that integrates the most valued free linux audio programs would be great but I don't think that is going to happen, due to the essence of FOSS. Even in that case, a good jack implementation would be a very desired feature. And IME can't have it all for every kind of musician, but jack can see any jack client. I also think LMMS would be a better app with a good jack support.

Maybe, commercial apps could do a great IME for Linux. Resound has a linux version. Who knows if others will do that in the future when Linux gets more popular in the Desktop Computer. We will see...

Cheers! Pablo
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Re: In what way modular approach is limiting

Post by spm_gl »

Louigi Verona wrote:On a fundamental level it is a 'modular vs IME' thing. As I pointed out before in this thread, you can never guarantee that the app you need will support it. In an IME while indeed for a time such functionality may not be implemented, but in order to do that you need only one developer. Not a hundred of independent people with independent projects.
Lets take a close look at the Windows world for second, specifically at Cubase. When you start Cubase you can only record audio and midi with it, and click together a few notes in the piano roll.
So in order to make music, you load... wait for it... a PLUGIN. Yeah. A third-party-tool. This approach is modular too. And you can only automate those parameters that the plugin (i.e. its developer) actually exposes to the host. So in the end its not really different. And the moment you load Reason over ReWire, you're doing nearly the same thing as having two programs communicate via Jack.
What I'm trying to point out is that the modular Linux approach is not that different, only more flexible. It has it's quirks, no doubt, but I don't think it limits the kind of music you can make on it.
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Re: In what way modular approach is limiting

Post by Louigi Verona »

But I prefer a good MIDI sequencer, a good notation editor, a good drum sequencer... than an IME that has all of these parts but they are not as good as specialized apps, as long as they can be easily integrated.
This often mentioned argument assumes than an IME has all those parts which are not as good as specialized apps. But what if those parts are as good as specialized parts? I have worked in FL Studio and Ableton Live. Please show me what parts in there are not as good as specialized apps? I haven't noticed. In fact, a lot of them are much more complete than a lot of specialized linux apps. GNU/Linux is about freedom first of all, not technology. If you start comparing the functionality of musical applications of Linux to other systems, Linux, I am afraid, today is not a winner in this field. Maybe some day - but not today.
So in order to make music, you load... wait for it... a PLUGIN. Yeah. A third-party-tool. This approach is modular too. And you can only automate those parameters that the plugin (i.e. its developer) actually exposes to the host.
This is a valid argument with which I agree.

In fact, it was pointed out to me that every IME is actually also modular - it is just a modular system with fixed connections. I agree.

But, as I've shown above, there is a whole class of music I believe it is impossible or near impossible to make with Linux - read the original post. If you do not agree and have the arguments to support your position, I would love to hear it. I am ready to change my opinion.
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Re: In what way modular approach is limiting

Post by Pablo »

But I prefer a good MIDI sequencer, a good notation editor, a good drum sequencer... than an IME that has all of these parts but they are not as good as specialized apps, as long as they can be easily integrated.
This often mentioned argument assumes than an IME has all those parts which are not as good as specialized apps. But what if those parts are as good as specialized parts? I have worked in FL Studio and Ableton Live. Please show me what parts in there are not as good as specialized apps? I haven't noticed. In fact, a lot of them are much more complete than a lot of specialized linux apps. GNU/Linux is about freedom first of all, not technology. If you start comparing the functionality of musical applications of Linux to other systems, Linux, I am afraid, today is not a winner in this field. Maybe some day - but not today.
I am not trying to compare FOSS and Linux apps with propietary and Windows/Mac apps. Have I mentioned them? I am sure they are more friendly to the user but I use Linux and/or I can't afford them. I say I prefer that developers focus on what they do best than on trying to build an IME from scratch.
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