Releasing the "source code" of music

Discuss how to promote using FLOSS to make music.

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Lenny
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Re: Releasing the "source code" of music

Postby Lenny » Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:54 am

Jack Winter wrote:Those that think that if someone else gets something, they must have lost something (the zero sum game people).


Zero sum game may be true for baboons fighting over territory, because the roots and bananas and whatnot are sometimes limited.

If we go full baboon with music, we should then knock the shit out of some guy who came up with pretty tune, and sell it to some hit producer. Problem is that music (and mathematics etc) is not by nature similar to natural resource like banana.

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Re: Releasing the "source code" of music

Postby wolftune » Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:58 am

42low wrote:I guess you also know life, that if you don't protect your sources you will be overrun by those who steal your sources leaving you behind to rot with nothing. Not sharing everything, some protection, is needed and is normal.


This fear is based in a lot of real-world stuff. It's also best when just dropped. It took me a while for me to get over this fear, including some personal prodding from Nina Paley, who learned the lesson herself with Sita Sings the Blues. I still recognize the way it's uncomfortable to unilaterally disarm in a world of other hostile, secretive actors. But it's a wonderful freeing feeling that actually offers the most profitable chances when you put yourself out there more fully and openly.

For reference: http://blog.ninapaley.com/ — she gave up all that controlling and secretive stuff and it's worked out great for her. Some of her philosophy on this: http://blog.ninapaley.com/2013/12/07/ma ... not-law-2/ and my own collection of tons of links and perspectives, hers and mine and others: http://blog.wolftune.com/2008/06/ration ... right.html
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Re: Releasing the "source code" of music

Postby wolftune » Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:10 pm

42low wrote:Thanks wolftune for this great reaction.

To me it is no fear, but just pragmatic practical oppinion.
And i am free in mind. I do share. I live by being nice to and good for people. But i expect it back.
Though reality is that not all (most) can live with that and abuse the situation. Fine to me if they live like that, but i am not going to be abused (as i don't abuse either). I give when i give at who i want to give, not otherwise.


Okay, it's a different attitude than fear. It's still irrational and speculative. To release art into the world where not *everyone* is sharing as freely as you is definitely *not* being abused, there's no fair way to describe it as such. If your art isn't something you wish to share widely at all (you only share it privately with select people), that's fine, that's a different matter. If you want to require that anyone who uses your art share their derivatives under the same terms, just use copyleft licensing.

Let me clarify the point of my post above: Of the various reasons to share or not share and to include or not include sources, here's a reason that is invalid: "Others will steal my ideas". Basically all notable creative work of all sorts, even quite personal, is built on preexisting ideas. Remixers will remix. You can exclude your work from being remixed because you don't want that to happen, and we can argue about the merits. But in most cases, when you share your work and sources for others to remix, nobody will. In the cases where they do, it will almost always be a good thing, and with copyleft licenses, they will be required to share the same way. So, if you don't want to share (or prefer to share selectively) for other reasons, we'd discuss those other reasons.

When I said "fear" originally, I mean this idea that bad things will happen because you shared your work freely. That is the idea which I was referring to holding myself at some point in the past and having learned to drop (because it's a mostly irrational and counterproductive idea).
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Re: Releasing the "source code" of music

Postby Lyberta » Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:34 pm

When there is nothing to lose, there is no fear. What you have to lose is entirely inside your mind. I do not fear people using my work because I don't lose anything. It would suck if someone would have taken my work and put it into proprietary stuff. If I had money I would probably filed a lawsuit in that case. But I would be upholding other people's right to share, I would not personally lose anything.

When you are young, you have a lot of expectations, a lot of self-worth. You think that your work is genius. But when you get older, you understand that you are just one of billions of people. You get the perspective.

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Re: Releasing the "source code" of music

Postby wolftune » Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:37 pm

Aaron Wolf
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Re: Releasing the "source code" of music

Postby Lyberta » Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:40 pm

wolftune wrote:my own collection of tons of links and perspectives, hers and mine and others: http://blog.wolftune.com/2008/06/ration ... right.html


This is an amazing article! You've mentioned public musical instruments there and I decided to dust off an old planned project of mine and push it to a first public release. :D

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Re: Releasing the "source code" of music

Postby Michael Willis » Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:10 pm

Lyberta wrote:You can make the public aware that those who don't share are bad people...


I don't really want to make such sweeping stereotypes. People aren't so one dimensional as that. Anybody that I know has their moments of selfishness, their redeeming qualities, their bad habits, and times that they're really trying to do the right thing.

It's a fool's errand trying to use shame to spread ideology. Shaming accomplishes nothing but increased enmity and alienation.

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Re: Releasing the "source code" of music

Postby Lyberta » Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:46 pm

Michael Willis wrote:
Lyberta wrote:You can make the public aware that those who don't share are bad people...


I don't really want to make such sweeping stereotypes. People aren't so one dimensional as that.


So you are saying that Google, Apple, Microsoft, Facebook, Warner Bros, DreamWorks, Activision, TakeTwo, Valve, Elsevier and countless others are good people? Do you know how much suffering they've inflicted on humanity? Do you know how many people died because of their actions? These people are criminals, they are the most dangerous criminals in the world because they write their own laws. They deserve to be executed in a most slow and painful way.

You don't understand. This is the war. This is the war on our freedom. If we don't fight, we will lose everything. Just look, look. We've already lost our freedom when using mobile phone. We will lose our freedom when using cars very soon. We've lost our freedom when using x86 computers. We are losing because of people like you who don't understand the seriousness of the situation. People like you is what puts me in suicidal mode and in psychiatric hospital. You may not value your freedom but try not to be selfish and understand that there are people out there (like Stallman, EFF folks and others) who value their freedom and they are facing a dire future.

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Re: Releasing the "source code" of music

Postby wolftune » Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:49 pm

42low, you can have your views, but please stop making invalid analogies. Ideas are NON-RIVALROUS which means copying is NOT theft. You can indeed discuss reasons for your views without relying on those completely non-sequitur arguments.

Lyberta, make your arguments about specific actions please, it's just more effective most of the time. Not-sharing of non-rivalrous works is an anti-social *action* but it doesn't mean we can just judge the actor as fundamentally a bad person, people are complex. Criticize the action/view/decision rather than making ad hominem arguments.
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Re: Releasing the "source code" of music

Postby falkTX » Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:24 pm

Lyberta wrote:They deserve to be executed in a most slow and painful way.


Lyberta wrote:People like you is what puts me in suicidal mode and in psychiatric hospital. You may not value your freedom but try not to be selfish and understand that there are people out there (like Stallman, EFF folks and others) who value their freedom and they are facing a dire future.


Man... you got problems.
Not just with the world, but with yourself as well.
You're never going to change anything acting like that, at all...

We can value our freedom without having to be jerks.

If this really pains you, then stop coming here.
One more reply like this and I have to block you.

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Re: Releasing the "source code" of music

Postby Lyberta » Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:39 pm

falkTX wrote:If this really pains you, then stop coming here.


I'm coming here because I have no other place to come. There is no forum dedicated to FOSS music. I'm cornered, angry and alone. Do what you want, pull the trigger, give me more fuel to kill myself. Just remember, when you will not have a hardware that can run GNU/Linux, when you will not have the means of survival, remember that I warned you.

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Re: Releasing the "source code" of music

Postby wolftune » Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:54 pm

Hey hey, don't make the awkward back-and-forth in pure text chat get all crazy.

Lyberta, your concerns are welcome here, but express them without ad hominem please. Your worries about the future are totally valid, but that future isn't inevitable. Try to get to some libre-focused conference or meetup if you can to get a proactive way to get some social support from others who understand the concerns. Always remember that plain text is far too easy to misinterpret and miss nuance.

Here's the stuff I put together trying to keep healthy online discourse: https://wiki.snowdrift.coop/community/honor-users I hope that's possibly useful.
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falkTX
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Re: Releasing the "source code" of music

Postby falkTX » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:25 pm

by the way, FOSS music making doesn't have to involve Linux.
Haiku is looking better and better every day. It already has Qt, sndfile, fluidsynth and a bunch of other libs ported to it.
Also some people prefer to stay on BSD systems.

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Re: Releasing the "source code" of music

Postby Michael Willis » Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:40 am

Lyberta wrote:suicidal mode


If you are honestly feeling suicidal, then with all the love I can muster, I encourage you to please find a face-to-face support system to help you through it. I can't tell you how to do it, that's up to you. Online help might be beneficial too, but it can't compare to having a friend or therapist who is there for you in real physical meat space.

I know we've been at odds on this thread, but if you need somebody to talk to and don't have anybody in person, please send me a private message.

I actually have a lot of ideological overlap with you. I've been a free software fanatic for nearly fifteen years, I contribute financially to GPL projects, and I'm on this forum because I want to share in the joy of making music with tools that give people freedom. I'm appalled at companies that hoard very personal data about people, I value my privacy and my freedom, and I tell people that I prefer to use an operating system that doesn't make me beholden to some soulless corporation. Despite all of that, I don't think I would be helping win any battles, let alone a war, by publicly shaming some guy in front of his friends because he didn't share a chowder recipe with me.

To be honest, I'm feeling kind of disappointed that we have much potential to be allies, and I could even be convinced on some of our differences, but instead of building on common ground we have ended up so divided because we aren't a 100% ideological match.

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Re: Releasing the "source code" of music

Postby wolftune » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:59 pm

42low wrote:If i develep a riff or tune and it is used for something commercial were i don't get my part, then that is some kind of theft. Then something which belongs to me is taken without permission, which is called theft.
It's as simple as that.


In other words, not simple at all. Legally, that situation is called "copyright infringement" and is certainly *not* "theft". Also, it's copyright infringement even if its used non-commercially if it's not fair use.

Now, if you never published the riff or tune and someone got it from you somehow (like cracking into your computer), that's quite different from you publishing it voluntarily. Once published, an unauthorized use of something isn't taking something away from you, it's just using it in an unauthorized way. No such use deprives you of having anything or not (aside from the twisted metaphor of depriving you of the power to restrict the use). This is the very nature of *non-rivalrous* goods.

Please note: I am not saying *here* whether or not you should or shouldn't have the right to restrict uses of your published works. I'm not saying here that if you have that right, you should necessarily not reserve it. All I'm saying is: it is a plain fact that your legal (and arguably moral) right to restrict uses of your published works has nothing to do with theft. It really *is* as simple as that.

The topic is about reservation (or non-reservation) of copyright and related rights. The topic is not theft.
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