Paul Davis at LAC 2017

[forestandgarden]

http://youtube.com/#/watch?list=PLpEMKw ... k2AMwc4e2k

"Ardour will never be finished ... It's hard to polish an elephant.."

An obviously subjective choice of quotes, just to make you curious.

It would be nice to see some debate on Mr. Davis views, which, in this talk, span a vast field of themes.

[ufug]

It's a fascinating talk. I'm surprised it hasn't been referenced or discussed more here on the forums. I like to think it inspired some beer-fueled debates among Linux audio developers, if such things ever happen.

As a user, it makes me a little sad--I feel like everything we have in this ecosystem on the cusp of usability for the general musician, but it seems like we are unlikely to ever quite get there.

Working link here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk2AMwc4e2k

[asbak]

Linux audio is a niche market. Even Linux desktop is a niche market so it's not really all that surprising that Linaudio isn't getting much mainstream traction. There is a massive industry built up around cross-promoting and selling commercial offerings which doesn't exist for the Linux audio segment. The music media are heavily invested in pushing the commercial offerings and in blanking out anything remotely Linux related, for obvious commercial reasons. So most potential users simply have no idea how many excellent offerings already exist in the Linux audio ecosystem.

Add to that the complexities of dealing with Linux audio & software configuration which puts it well beyond the scope and abilities of typical users whose intention was to use the software to make music and expected it to work "out of the box" as it does with MacOS or Windoze.

It's pointless being cynical or negative about it. It simply is a different beast to what is available on the commercial offerings.

Besides, things have been steadily improving in recent years. Linaudio software has come a long way from where it used to be. There are even excellent commercial offerings available now and thanks to class compliant USB hardware audio interfaces there's no shortage of modern sound cards to choose from.

My view is that the future's bright but I can also understand how demoralising it can be for developers hoping to earn a living from coding for Linaudio. It's a bit like being a musician nowadays - do it because you love doing it but play it safe and get a day job that pays the rent instead of pinning hopes on turning music or Linaudio coding into a full time career.

[GMaq]

Hi,

Not much I can debate really, I agreed with most of it and found the direct honesty quite refreshing especially in these current times. Observing from the outside despite Mr. Davis' low-key realism we can certainly see over the last 18 months that Ardour and Mixbus have enjoyed an unprecedented and very impressive and long list of great new features and many long-running bugs have been fixed, the cross-pollination between Ardour and Mixbus has been immensely profitable for both projects and demonstrated that a possible future is increased collaboration between open and closed source worlds further evidenced by U-he, Tracktion, BitWig, Renoise, Reaper for Linux and the renewing of Linux development at OverToneDSP among others. asbak is also quite right about how class-compliance has the wind blowing our way for better and more varied interfaces. All said a lot has happened very quickly and a lot of companies have dipped a toe into the Linux Audio pond, that doesn't mean they are here to stay, if there is not money to be made by growing their user base on this new platform with many unique challenges then we may find in another 18 months we are back where we started.

Mr. Davis has been at this a VERY long time and seen a lot of things come and go, I'm sure there is just cause for him to be cautious about the future.

[wjl]

Hi all,

I found the talk very inspiring. Plus he discusses not only the state of Ardour, Jack, and other software just on Linux, but the general state of audio done with PCs, Macs, and Linux.

I also learned from him that for instance the Behringer X32 console - a very nice offering in and by itself - does work plug & play with Linux (because it does with Core Audio, and it's class compliant and even comes with some mixing software for Linux). So I thanked him on a post on my blog for it.

It could be that Linux is actually gaining some ground. People are disappointed about Windows 10 and don't trust it much, and for those of you who can read German, lately there was a very nice howto "workshop" about setting up a Linux machine for audio work, here. One of the commentators even uses and mentions Glen's AVLinux, here.

And some still ask for Reaper, instead of trying Ardour, Qtractor, or any other of the fine programs we have already. I understand: different mindset, expectations, and target group(s).

Cheers,
Wolfgang

[glowrak guy]

Add to that the complexities of dealing with Linux audio & software configuration which puts it well beyond the scope and abilities of typical users whose intention was to use the software to make music and expected it to work "out of the box" as it does with MacOS or Windoze.

I'd like to vacation in the world where making music with windows works 'out of the box'.
In my world, you'd have to learn Control Panel and Device Manager choices and settings,
aquire and configure asio capability, choose and learn a daw or three, choose and
learn some instruments and plugins, hit the record button, and put your inner genious to work
mixing and mastering the results. And in the case of win 10, you must also be a config wizard
to keep it from replacing all that you've worked so hard to establish, without ever asking your permission.
And in the case of 0Sex, go get a second day job to afford current hardware.

All the same general steps are needed for musicians using win-x, 0Sex and linux, but there are different
hardware and software choices and labels, and fewer wars to fight against OS invasions and dogmas.

In actual use, the linux complexities people often cite, are the very flexibilities, tools,
and workflows, that make a linux a joy to use, compared to brickwall-limiter operating systems.
It is linux users who are 'out of the box', while others are trapped in boxes not of their own making.
Cheers

[bhilmers]

In my world, you'd have to learn Control Panel and Device Manager choices and settings,
aquire and configure asio capability, choose and learn a daw or three, choose and
learn some instruments and plugins, hit the record button, and put your inner genious to work
mixing and mastering the results.

Give me a break. You clearly have above average needs. I have a ton of friends who write amazing music using only Ableton Live and they can barely use a computer otherwise. None of them have any idea what ASIO is. They don't need other DAWs or even give a crap about Plugins. Besides, all the major DAWs are fully-featured and self-contained.

In actual use, the linux complexities people often cite, are the very flexibilities, tools,
and workflows, that make a linux a joy to use, compared to brickwall-limiter operating systems.

I appreciate your enthusiasm about Linux, but let's not get delusional. I've actually seen more friends in the last two years start writing music solely on Android and iOS devices than any Linux Desktop (zero friends are using Linux for music).

[CrocoDuck]

Very interesting video, thanks for sharing. It touched many interesting points, especially the example about commercial products being very very refined, over long time, is very interesting.

[CrocoDuck]

I've actually seen more friends in the last two years start writing music solely on Android

Well, that's actually Linux: it got the Linux kernel and the audio stack is based on ALSA (at least in all the ROMs I had to work with so far). Sorry, couldn't resist nitpicking... It's stronger than me ... But I get your point. I will sum up mine very simply: in my experience Win and Mac are not necessarily easier (I got my life simplified by passing from XP to Ubuntu 10.04, believe it or not), but I wouldn't recommend Linux to a person whose goal is to make music right away, without wanting to invest time in learning computerish stuff. There are just way more chances to be able to do that on platform whose audio stack is not as strange as in Linux.

[raboof]

I was intrigued by the 'Pink Tunes' story in one of the first slides, now watching the rest of the talk with http://www.groove.nl/cd/2/29430.html playing in the background - they go together strangely well

[ssj71]

... the example about commercial products being very very refined, over long time, is very interesting.

To me this is key to why open source audio software will never really become mainstream. Our open source "hobby software" (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwNXn7OKVzY&t=182s) is driven by people passionate about whatever project they want to make, and its awesome, but nobody really is passionate about years of polishing. There are a few devs (very few) currently with the tenacity and passion about their overall project that they are polishing and polishing, but they don't have funding enough to dedicate the time necessary to make a truly "professional" product. We typically are also not passionate about marketing which is a necessary evil for procuring such funding. So we end up with a whole bunch of 80-90% there, semi-abandoned programs that have the core features that get us by but don't have the smooth workflow that would really help get greater adoption, and a handful of programs that are really ace and/or are under current long term maintenance and polish. And the 12 or so (mostly part-time) devs on the scene are either busy polishing that handful of apps or are trying to get just enough done on their already 80% there stuff that it doesn't become abandoned while working on new stuff that they are passionate about.

TBH I don't see how it will change. The only solutions I think are 1. an influx of capable devs passionate about polishing existing projects and/or 2. an influx of money sufficient to keep developers more interested in key projects rather than wandering to new projects or simply getting too busy with taking care of themselves and their families. Neither one seems especially likely to me.

[asbak]

I'd like to vacation in the world where making music with windows works 'out of the box'.
In my world, you'd have to learn Control Panel and Device Manager choices and settings,
aquire and configure asio capability, choose and learn a daw or three, choose and
learn some instruments and plugins, hit the record button, and put your inner genious to work
mixing and mastering the results. And in the case of win 10, you must also be a config wizard
to keep it from replacing all that you've worked so hard to establish, without ever asking your permission.

As someone who has gone through much pain getting audio set up on both Doze & Linux, the Linux ecosystem was infinitely more complex and difficult to get to grips with until I finally managed to figure out what I needed to know. It's a breeze now, but to the average technophobic user? I don't think the poor dears stand a snowflake's chance in hell.

And in the case of 0Sex, go get a second day job to afford current hardware.

Yes, cult-of-Apple is definitely a gig for crack slingers, hipsters or trust fund kids. It's beyond the reach of sane folks who don't want to sink into the debt cesspit.

All the same general steps are needed for musicians using win-x, 0Sex and linux, but there are different
hardware and software choices and labels, and fewer wars to fight against OS invasions and dogmas.

In actual use, the linux complexities people often cite, are the very flexibilities, tools,
and workflows, that make a linux a joy to use, compared to brickwall-limiter operating systems.
It is linux users who are 'out of the box', while others are trapped in boxes not of their own making.
Cheers

I love Linux for the same reasons, but it's all too much for the average amoeba out there to take in. They aren't interested in being free, in having freedoms, in learning how to act and think for themselves nor do they want to invest in their education or learn about the complexities of IT.

Cult-of-Apple and Microsoft understand this and sell the herd what they crave and want. It's that simple. You can take a horse to the water but you can't make it drink.

[folderol]

I've heard music composed by people using iphones etc. proudly announcing they did it in less than an hour. I found most of it repetitive and, frankly, boring.

I've also heard music composed by (rather fewer) people using quite sophisticated kit, and taking time to develop an idea, sometimes over months. The result has a depth and presence that really grabs you. These people are highly focused and will take the time to learn whatever is needed to get the results they want.

Those people should be our target.

[bhilmers]

These people are highly focused and will take the time to learn whatever is needed to get the results they want. Those people should be our target.

Simply learning the intricacies of an advanced DAW is enough. Linux audio adds an unneeded layer of complexity other operating systems don't have. I know people like to claim Jack is superior because it's modular, but there are modular DAWs on Win/Mac too. It's a faulty argument. Musicians want to create music, not troubleshoot conflicts between software, hardware, and sound servers. Most of that stuff is completely transparent in those other OS'.

[Drumfix]

@bhilmers As long as people claiming to be familiar with linux continue to spread this nonsense there won't be many users coming to linux.