Sing, beastie, sing!

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gimmeapill
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Re: Sing, beastie, sing!

Post by gimmeapill »

danboid wrote:Under most Linux distros/kernels (ie with non Low-latency / RT kernels), JACK fails to start if I try enabling RT mode. I always thought this was a kernel dependent feature? If not, what enables RT mode to work?
Permissions.It won't work by default on any security conscious distro, and this is the normal behavior until you add yourself to the audio group and set limits.conf: https://wiki.linuxaudio.org/wiki/system ... faudioconf

Just to be clear: you won't be able to push the stock kernel as far as the RT-patched one, but you will be able to run jackd in RT mode.
And the performance should be good enough to bring you in the 5ms ballpark before the stock kernel drops the ball...
danboid
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Re: Sing, beastie, sing!

Post by danboid »

gimmeapill wrote:
danboid wrote:Under most Linux distros/kernels (ie with non Low-latency / RT kernels), JACK fails to start if I try enabling RT mode. I always thought this was a kernel dependent feature? If not, what enables RT mode to work?
Permissions.It won't work by default on any security conscious distro, and this is the normal behavior until you add yourself to the audio group and set limits.conf: https://wiki.linuxaudio.org/wiki/system ... faudioconf

Just to be clear: you won't be able to push the stock kernel as far as the RT-patched one, but you will be able to run jackd in RT mode.
And the performance should be good enough to bring you in the 5ms ballpark before the stock kernel drops the ball...
Oh yeah! That was it. Regardless, its less steps and a +1 for FreeBSD in my book.
danboid
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Re: Sing, beastie, sing!

Post by danboid »

Since my last post I have tested OSS MIDI with my MIDI keyboard under TrueOS, and I now have my single drive, BIOS-based laptop dual booting TrueOS and Arch. I was impressed that my USB MIDI controller 'just worked' without me having to load any kernel modules or anything - I just plugged it in and it appeared under /dev/umidi0.

I have also had a quick go at getting Helm and amsynth to work. Amsynth is mostly working, just got a prob with the installation of skins but Helm is requiring a bit more effort to get going:

https://github.com/amsynth/amsynth/issues/100

https://github.com/mtytel/helm/issues/142

I had my first proper online interview as an interviewee on Wednesday with BSD Now where I went into my adventures in switching to TrueOS in some detail. My interview will be part of next weeks episode 201. I'll post it here when its online.
meka
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Re: Sing, beastie, sing!

Post by meka »

I'm so glad people are spreading the word about open source software alternatives in audio studios. All that porting and blog writing of mine serves a purpose :D
danboid
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Re: Sing, beastie, sing!

Post by danboid »

Good work and thanks for your blog meka! Maybe we'll have to start a FreeBSDMusicians one day! There are at least 3 of us! Maybe a subforum here might make more sense, if they let us, if there is enough interest one day?

I've always valued portable software. If something works under both FreeBSD and Linux, it is likely to run under most of the other BSDs and UNIXs too. I really like that so everything I find that works well under FreeBSD too I just end up liking and wanting to use more.

I must admit I've not put much time into music or music software in recent months but since my last post I have got setbfree to build and run nicely as an LV2 under TrueOS Ardour5, albeit without a GUI.

Last week I did an interview about my experience trying to switch to TrueOS for BSD Now which got uploaded today. I get on to talking about Linux music software a little bit in part of it too. The interview starts 36m in:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCyr-RSmjq4

http://www.jupiterbroadcasting.com/1164 ... d-now-201/
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Re: Sing, beastie, sing!

Post by CrocoDuck »

danboid wrote:Good work and thanks for your blog meka! Maybe we'll have to start a FreeBSDMusicians one day! There are at least 3 of us! Maybe a subforum here might make more sense, if they let us, if there is enough interest one day?
Although I only played on FreeBSD on virtual machines I am pretty interested in knowing how you guys are doing, so I would for sure read a forum section for FreeBSD users, or FreeBSD musicians if that existed. Probably it would make sense to start it here, as the bulk of the knowledge on Unix audio stuff gravitates around here I would think...

I get that Darwin OS and FreeBSD are pretty similar... who knows, maybe one day we might even have PureDarwin musicians out of this...
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Re: Sing, beastie, sing!

Post by danboid »

Hi CrocoDuck

I agree it makes more sense to keep it as a sub-forum here, if there is ever enough FreeBSD/TrueOS users to justify a new sub-forum.

I'm not sure I see the point in PureDarwin personally. Why should anyone use that over something based upon Linux or FreeBSD? macOS's interesting tech, as far as I'm aware is its totally non-open display server, GUI and tools etc. macOS has APFS now which is not only much more immature and less tested but does not offer feature parity with ZFS. I'm not arguing against it, but I don;t see why anyone should be interested in PureDarwin outside of Apple enthusiasts? To be honest, I can use that same argument against every other open source UNIX variant out there but I would like to know what motivates the puredarwin team.

amsynth works under TrueOS, as both a standalone app and as an LV2 plugin under Ardour 5 complete with MIDI learn via OSS. I was having probs because I'd half built it with BSD make then finished the build with gmake. Only use gmake for making and installing it!
CrocoDuck
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Re: Sing, beastie, sing!

Post by CrocoDuck »

danboid wrote:I'm not arguing against it, but I don;t see why anyone should be interested in PureDarwin outside of Apple enthusiasts?
For me it is just curiosity.
danboid wrote: amsynth works under TrueOS, as both a standalone app and as an LV2 plugin under Ardour 5 complete with MIDI learn via OSS. I was having probs because I'd half built it with BSD make then finished the build with gmake. Only use gmake for making and installing it!
Good news!
danboid
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Re: Sing, beastie, sing!

Post by danboid »

samplv1 LV2 works under TrueOS Ardour too.
danboid
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Re: Sing, beastie, sing!

Post by danboid »

GOOD NEWS

Ardour 5.8 is currently the binary version in the TrueOS repos but it was as simple as typing `make install` in the ardour5 ports directory to bulld and install 5.10.

THE BAD

Under the current TrueOS and FreeBSD kernels, only root can run JACK with RT mode enabled. There is a new ports kernel module that can be installed to allow non-root users to gain RT privs which I have got to build but not load. That could be because my kernel sources don't exactly match my running kernel:

https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_ ... ?id=219377

I'm going to open a TrueOS ticket to request they create kernel source packages for their kernels.

EDIT:

https://github.com/trueos/trueos-core/issues/1453
danboid
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Re: Sing, beastie, sing!

Post by danboid »

I've spent the last 5/6 months using TrueOS as my primary OS but tomorrow, when I get broadband again, I will be switching back to Linux as my main OS. I think TrueOS is the most interesting and promising non-Linux based open source OS. I'm equally fascinated by Redox and Haiku but they are more enthusiast in nature than TrueOS is, which I think has the potential to be a very usable desktop OS with first rate ZFS support in a year or twos time.

The crunch point came three days ago when this feature request of mine was deemed a 'won't fix':

https://github.com/trueos/trueos-core/issues/1480

My main computer is an i7, BIOS-based laptop with a single SSD. For months now I have been dual-booting TrueOS with Arch but because the TrueOS bootloader doesn't support chainloading, I have had to boot supergrubdisk off USB to be able to boot my Arch partition. Not very convenient. The FreeBSD bootloader does have chainloading support which I have tested and I know works but the TrueOS team have decided not to replicate/modify this code because it is only required for non-UEFI machines and they are trying to phase out support for BIOS machines, or something.

I will continue to run FreeBSD on my NAS to take advantage of FreeBSDs first rate ZFS support but the advantages that ZFS offers over the linux FS alternatives on my laptop don't outweigh the drawbacks for trying to use TrueOS as a desktop OS:

* Booting to MATE under TrueOS on my SATA3 SSD takes 60+ seconds versus 6 seconds to boot to MATE under Arch, thats with or without ZFS root under Arch and with networkmanager running and connecting to wifi.

* The TrueOS network manager app doesn't support auto-connecting to USB ethernet connections

* USB audio support in the TrueOS mixer is buggy and FreeBSD / TrueOS has no support for bluetooth audio

* TrueOS updates are unlike what we're used to in Linux land. It tends to update the whole OS in one hit and install it into a new boot env. This makes rollback quick and easy but it also means you have to rebuild and reinstall and packages you have installed from ports ie not from the TrueOS repos, every time you do an OS update. The ports rebuild process can be automated but its still potentially time consuming if you require numerous big packages or specific tweaks to big packages.

* Lumina isn't there yet for my use cases. MATE is quite outdated (1.12), unsupported and I haven't manged to get the power management stuff working from the MATE GUI ie being able to suspend from the logout menu doesn't work under MATE. KDE is still at v4 in FreeBSD land.

* There would appear to be a bug in the FreeBSD USB code that causes multi-minute delays whenever I use gmtp to connect to my phones memory cards.

* There isn't really any proper joypad / joystick support under FreeBSD. You have to use something like anti-micro to configure joypad input via faked keypresses but that didn't like my joypad.

* I have to start JACK as root to use RT mode as I couldn't get a kernel module that allows non-root users to do this to work

* JUCE does not support FreeBSD so I have been unable to build two of my fave softsynths - helm and Noisemaker. Jules has said he would accept patches for FreeBSD if they weren't too invasive as he can't test it.

I have reported all the above issues to the TrueOS devs and/or the FreeBSD devs. If they make it easy for me to multiboot TrueOS, I would be willing to continue to give it room on my drive as a secondary OS but every one of those points works fine under Linux and the advantages of ZFS don't make up for all of those inconveniences - especially when I am taking advantage of ZFS on my NAS anyway.
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Re: Sing, beastie, sing!

Post by gimmeapill »

Given the recently announced fate of Solaris, I wouldn't put too much hope on ZFS in the long run.
Oracle folks are notoriously good at ruining the party, especially for non paying customers
(just my 2 cents based on ~17y of enterprise IT experience).

Anyway, thanks Danboid for sailing the uncharted seas (and reporting back) ;-)
danboid
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Re: Sing, beastie, sing!

Post by danboid »

OpenZFS will do just fine. I've heard that about 50% of it current codebase is from after when Oracle closed Solaris again.

If I like opensuse more than Arch, Debian and Ubuntu, I'll be looking into how to install it to a ZFS root partition. Even if I have no luck with that, I'm sure I'll stil be able to use my external ZFS formatted drives fine under suse, after installing the required packages and kernel modules. We then need to fix up a Linux bootloader so that it can match the FreeBSD bootloader for ZFS support ie boot environment selection etc. This isn't fully working under FreeBSD yet either but it would be great to have.
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neb
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Re: Sing, beastie, sing!

Post by neb »

I've read the whole thread coming from Meka's talk on FreeBSD audio looking for his blog post (found it in Wayback Machine).
Anyway, just wanted to tell @danboid that TrueOS moved to a Void Linux (named Trident now) and they are bringing the ZFS goodness too!

I'm installing FreeBSD on modern hardware (laptop) and am awaiting an USB audio interface shortly by mail (USB). So I naturally want this subsection on the forum 8)

Cheers

PS: Listening to episode 201 as we speak :D
Last edited by neb on Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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