VST3 SDK finally GPL'ed!

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skei
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Re: VST3 SDK finally GPL'ed!

Postby skei » Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:28 am

Basslint wrote:And there is a proprietary DAW on GNU/Linux, Bitwig studio, which already supports VST3 plugins.


Reaper too..

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Re: VST3 SDK finally GPL'ed!

Postby Kott » Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:58 am

with latest commit Surge works in Reaper as VST3 now

commit 514ed95dfa5e547803f02a8bb957bad26472ddac (HEAD -> master, origin/master, origin/HEAD)
Author: Paul <baconpaul@users.noreply.github.com>
Date: Sun Jul 28 20:56:28 2019 -0400

VST3 Linux Attempt (#979)

This set of changes creates a VST3 which works in the Steinberg
Demo edithost but does not work in BitWig quite yet.

Addresses #514


guys do incredible work

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Re: VST3 SDK finally GPL'ed!

Postby GuntherT » Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:11 pm

Basslint wrote:Sorry for the huge bump people, two years.

But two years passed and almost nothing changed, while this should have been big news that could change audio on GNU/Linux forever.

First, Ardour did not implement VST3. This is possibly due to license incompatibility between Ardour (GPLv2+) and the VST3 SDK (GPLv3), which could be solved only if Ardour moved to GPLv3+.

Then, many major libre VST plugins were not ported from VST2, despite Steinberg really discouraging it (it also sends DMCAs to whom distributes it).

Are we as a community not going to do anything about it? Too bad, because this could be a huge opportunity to grow.


Reading the comments of the Linux plugin developers who chimed in when this topic was new, I didn't get the impression that this was big news to them.

If I understand the situation correctly, Ardour will never move to GPLv3 as Mixbus would no longer be able to use Ardour's code due to the additional restrictions of that license. Harrison has done a lot to aid the Ardour project, and as far as I know, Steinberg has done nothing. Ardour wouldn't gain anything from changing their license to match the VST3 license and would instead lose a valuable partner, which makes no sense.

What do you expect the community to do? I personally see no connection between Steinberg changing the license of a bit of software and a huge opportunity for us to grow, but perhaps there is one. As far as I know, there was no pent up demand for Steinberg to do this. People weren't clamoring for it before it happened; it was somewhat of a surprise.

I think it is encouraging when we see software GPL'd, but we should measure our expectations. It still takes an incredible amount of effort for developers to do something with that code, and if the code that is open-sourced is not particularly useful to developers, we shouldn't expect much to come of it.

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Re: VST3 SDK finally GPL'ed!

Postby Basslint » Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:08 pm

GuntherT wrote:
Basslint wrote:Sorry for the huge bump people, two years.

But two years passed and almost nothing changed, while this should have been big news that could change audio on GNU/Linux forever.

First, Ardour did not implement VST3. This is possibly due to license incompatibility between Ardour (GPLv2+) and the VST3 SDK (GPLv3), which could be solved only if Ardour moved to GPLv3+.

Then, many major libre VST plugins were not ported from VST2, despite Steinberg really discouraging it (it also sends DMCAs to whom distributes it).

Are we as a community not going to do anything about it? Too bad, because this could be a huge opportunity to grow.


Reading the comments of the Linux plugin developers who chimed in when this topic was new, I didn't get the impression that this was big news to them.

If I understand the situation correctly, Ardour will never move to GPLv3 as Mixbus would no longer be able to use Ardour's code due to the additional restrictions of that license. Harrison has done a lot to aid the Ardour project, and as far as I know, Steinberg has done nothing. Ardour wouldn't gain anything from changing their license to match the VST3 license and would instead lose a valuable partner, which makes no sense.

What do you expect the community to do? I personally see no connection between Steinberg changing the license of a bit of software and a huge opportunity for us to grow, but perhaps there is one. As far as I know, there was no pent up demand for Steinberg to do this. People weren't clamoring for it before it happened; it was somewhat of a surprise.

I think it is encouraging when we see software GPL'd, but we should measure our expectations. It still takes an incredible amount of effort for developers to do something with that code, and if the code that is open-sourced is not particularly useful to developers, we shouldn't expect much to come of it.


I understand your reasoning, but why is the GPLv3 a problem for Harrison? If they are using the GPLv2, they are required to release the source code anyway. If they are using a different license (which I doubt, because AFAIK Ardour does not have a CLA so they need consent from each contributor), the GPLv3 would not apply anyway.

Edit: Mixbus is too released under the GPL
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GuntherT
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Re: VST3 SDK finally GPL'ed!

Postby GuntherT » Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:50 pm

I'm no expert on this, but as I understand it, the GPLv2 license allows Harrison to link the free software to its proprietary mixer that sits atop Ardour. The code modifications Harrison makes to Ardour's code to connect their mixer is open source (but not really useful to anyone else), but the mixer itself is not. TiVo devices were doing something similar, which free software advocates didn't like, so GPLv3 was released to prevent companies from doing this and forces all linked code to be open sourced. It is the same reason why the Linux kernel will forever remain GPLv2 or else companies like Intel would not be able to build closed source binary blobs into it. The technical differences between the types of code that can and cannot be linked while remaining closed source is beyond my scope of knowledge.

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Re: VST3 SDK finally GPL'ed!

Postby raboof » Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:24 am

GuntherT wrote:If I understand the situation correctly, Ardour will never move to GPLv3 as Mixbus would no longer be able to use Ardour's code due to the additional restrictions of that license


Did you find a statement by them to this effect somewhere?

GuntherT wrote:I'm no expert on this, but as I understand it, the GPLv2 license allows Harrison to link the free software to its proprietary mixer that sits atop Ardour.


I'm not aware of any differences between GPLv2 and GPLv3 with respect to linking. Of course the language is different, so I'm not claiming there's no difference, I just haven't seen this highlighted before.

GuntherT wrote:TiVo devices were doing something similar, which free software advocates didn't like, so GPLv3 was released to prevent companies from doing this and forces all linked code to be open sourced.


While the 'TiVo-ization' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tivoization) was certainly a big motivation behind GPLv3, I'm not sure it has anything to do with the MixBus situation: the TiVo-ization discussion was about vendors releasing the code but making it impossible to run modified versions. AFAICS Harrison doesn't do that: certainly you can modify (the GPL part of) MixBus and just run it?

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Re: VST3 SDK finally GPL'ed!

Postby tavasti » Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:24 am

raboof wrote: AFAICS Harrison doesn't do that: certainly you can modify (the GPL part of) MixBus and just run it?

This is interesting! So in theory, I could get some ardour patch, and make myself bug-fixed version of Mixbus?
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Re: VST3 SDK finally GPL'ed!

Postby raboof » Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:45 am

tavasti wrote:
raboof wrote: AFAICS Harrison doesn't do that: certainly you can modify (the GPL part of) MixBus and just run it?

This is interesting! So in theory, I could get some ardour patch, and make myself bug-fixed version of Mixbus?

I don't see why not. How easy this is depends a lot on how much the ardour and mixbus codebases have diverged, of course, and how hard/easy it is to build it in the first place. Plus naturally you can't expect any support for your patched version.

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Re: VST3 SDK finally GPL'ed!

Postby GuntherT » Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:42 pm

I dug up some old posts I had read a while back, and it appears I am probably wrong about Ardour and Mixbus having licensing incompatibilities if Ardour's license moved to GPLv3. This would also force Mixbus to change their license to GPLv3 for the open source portion of the program, but that change may not prohibit their inclusion of the closed source code. I did find a post where Robin states he prefers GPLv2 because he fully understands the license, and it fits his needs, so perhaps that is the main reason for Ardour sticking with GPLv2. In another post, he mentions that Steinberg open sourcing the VST3 code could lead to Mixbus having VST3 support in the future, so...nevermind my nonsense. It appears I was conflating the consequences of commercial software using one license over the other to apply here since Mixbus is a commercial application that uses a combination of open and closed source code, and even then, it doesn't look like my understanding of the issues is correct.

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Re: VST3 SDK finally GPL'ed!

Postby raboof » Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:09 am

GuntherT wrote:It appears I was conflating the consequences of commercial software using one license over the other to apply here since Mixbus is a commercial application that uses a combination of open and closed source code, and even then, it doesn't look like my understanding of the issues is correct.

It'd definitely a tricky subject! Thanks for the update!


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