Rakarrack and live guitar processing (bass)

[devilock76]

Ok I couldn't find other discussions on this, and for that matter couldn't find a section in the board on live usage. Ok so my Boss GT-6B is dying a painful sporadic menu attack death. So time to try something new. In analyzing my top choices they are:

1. Individual stomp pedals and rack gear: $300~ for the minimum basics $1200~ for the whole enchilada
2. Another Multi effect unit (M9 or M13 are in the top contention): $300-$500
3. Ipad2 + Amplitube + Irig: $600 (I eventually want an Ipad regardless, but not a now purchase unless I go this route.
4. Linux computer + rakarrak + ?: Works great on my mobile recording station, trying it on my netbook but thinking of a dedicated machine for it. Laptop but something near netbook form factor: $300 max if I buy a new computer (well used) for it.
5. Korg Pandora, I would actually mount it on the bass before my wireless transmitter: $200

So my question is who uses Linux for live FX processing on stage? I can't find much of people using it. I can get the sound I want with Rakarrak. I play a mix of covers and live music in a variety of styles. Typically 4-6 gigs a month + rehearsal and some studio session work here and there. My bass effects are a mixed bag.

My basics (or the Bootsy Collins chain):

1. Compressor - I generally always play with one, helps protect my amp when I slap but also brings up finger tapping and harmonic techniques I sometimes employ, typically the last item in my signal chain before the amp.
2. Fuzz - think muff fuzz
3. Envolope Filter, Mutron/Qtron
4. Octaver/harmonizer - I like using an octave up effect, as opposed to octave down typically. Depends if I am playing a 4 string or 5 string and the task at hand.

Extra Gravy:

Delay/echo
Noise Gate
Synth FX
Chorus
Tuner/mute pedal

Now despite this slightly lengthy FX chain for bass, I typically set my rigs up stomp box style so instead of switching a whole patch I just take pieces in and out as needed (a strike against the pandora). Still I don't make many mid song changes. Most of the spacey FX stuff is for intros to songs or to duplicate some non bass sounds.

Just wondering if anyone chime in anything about the pros and cons of my solutions, particular to the using a linux laptop in this capacity. I already know a fast enough machine can easily handle this task with low latency, and even without a midi foot controller I can get by at least for a period with hitting the number keys for quick changes.

Oh and can anyone recommend a better guitar tuning program for Linux. Rakarrack's tuner does not impress me and cannot handle the Low B on my 5 string basses. The program effects can handle the low B but not the tuner.

Ken

[spm_gl]

I can't really comment on the whole live-fx thing, but I would strongly suggest you use a dedicated (analog) compressor/limiter before going anywhere near a computer, especially when slapping.

[devilock76]

I can't really comment on the whole live-fx thing, but I would strongly suggest you use a dedicated (analog) compressor/limiter before going anywhere near a computer, especially when slapping.

Curiosity, why? I tested slapping using my Firepod and rackarrack and the compressor at the end of the rakarrack signal chain and the sound was pretty good going to my markbass amp.

Ken

[spm_gl]

Because you're very likely to overload the input, causing distortion. Perhaps just a little analog limiter, for safety. If you compress a bit before going into the effects, they have more level to work on.

[devilock76]

Because you're very likely to overload the input, causing distortion. Perhaps just a little analog limiter, for safety. If you compress a bit before going into the effects, they have more level to work on.

OH OK. I think I have been fine with that so far, maybe a nano compressor right in front of the computer though if need be. I just bought a ART Dual Pre USB to use for these purposes live. I don't feel like lugging my firepod for live stage use. That would mean a whole nother rack to bring.

Plus I want to try to make this work with my netbook, which does not have any way of handling firewire.

I just need to figure a safe way to set the netbook on stage above the amp. One thing I might get though is if this works sonically I am going to pick up a wireless number pad, attach it to the bass and be able to wirelessly enable and disable rakarrack FX modules from the bass while playing. I wonder what the effective range of those wireless number pads are...???

Ken

[spm_gl]

I just need to figure a safe way to set the netbook on stage above the amp.

Heat might become a problem, and vibration could damage the HD. An SSD would help.

I wonder what the effective range of those wireless number pads are...???

I'm guessing here, but the 2,4GHz thingies should be okay on a normal stage, provided there is no obstacle in front of the receiver.

Regarding the limiter, you should check the input VU while playing, then you'll know if you're in danger or not. But I always found myself playing a lot louder on stage, so some safety is good to have.
I'm wondering if you'll have a latency problem with the netbook, compared to the boss. Didn't find any latency figures for it.

[devilock76]

I am testing that now. Well as soon as the ART gets in. My laptop I use for recording mobile with the firepod is a 2 ghz dual core with 2gig of ram. Older Toshiba. In testing with the firepod, using jack and rakarack I dialed the latency in the jack settings down to about 6ms. This was not even being ultra aggressive and everything ran fine. Great response, no xruns, the cpu was barely taxed. I also was running way more simultaneous fx than I would ever run in most live situations. No clipping and the no real noise or feedback issues whatsoever. I use Fedora 14 at present with the planet ccrma repos and real time kernel. For my test, I used Fluxbox as my WM just to insure low overhead.

When I get the ART in I will test with the netbook. The ART should arrive Saturday from Amazon. I figure if I was able to get the results above with little effort on a 2ghz dual core with 2 gigs of ram then I should be able to accomplish 10ms latency or better without xruns on this 1.6ghz with 1 meg of ram machine. Maybe not though due to it being an Atom processor. If it does not work out well enough then that will be the end of this netbook and I will sell it for something that can handle it. Probably something with a touch screen. Maybe a touch screen desktop all in one.

As I look at the options, and what I want to do, I think the computer route is going to be where I want to go. If anything it will be a conversation piece in most band settings.

I was wondering about bass vibrations and the computer. Hmm, how to solve that without increasing floorspace foot print...???

Ken

[spm_gl]

I was wondering about bass vibrations and the computer. Hmm, how to solve that without increasing floorspace foot print...???

Well, get a SSD instead of a hard disk, and then perhaps some form of shock-mounting. You could for example place it on four small soft foam pads (small, to ensure air circulation under the netbook).

[devilock76]

Originally I was thinking a rack shelf or drawer in my amp head case (mark bass sd700). Now I am thinking what the hell why not just get a laptop stage stand. Kind of like a sheet music stand but for the laptop/netbook.

I guess it looks like I am going into uncharted waters with this. Not a lot of non-pros doing it and the pros don't seem to use Linux in this capacity.

In the end if I had to play a show with no Bass FX I could do it most of the time, which is why I am willing to try this experiment out. It is not just about saving money. Maybe I can get far enough into this to prove it as viable.

I kind of hate stomp boxes, but love them too. I love the tone and I prefer having individual on off of each part of the signal chain. But I hate the clutter and wiring of them. And the cost starts to get ridiculous, plus no way to save settings. Multi-FX pedals have more of the workflow, but they start to get bulky as well and have their own hassles.

I mean really in the end an M13 is cheaper. Has enough flexibility to do exactly what I want to do. But I would like to prove this concept. I particularly like the idea of controlling FX wirelessly from my bass.

Ken

[spm_gl]

Originally I was thinking a rack shelf or drawer in my amp head case (mark bass sd700). Now I am thinking what the hell why not just get a laptop stage stand. Kind of like a sheet music stand but for the laptop/netbook.

That's actually a great idea. You could also use it to display notes, lyrics, whatever. And you can see what your fx are doing, which is always a good idea.
If you have a rack, you could also use a rack computer case, but that's nearly as expensive as a netbook.

I mean really in the end an M13 is cheaper. Has enough flexibility to do exactly what I want to do. But I would like to prove this concept.

Please do. My designated guitarist on my new project has some boss fx unit, but I think the sounds won't be flexible enough for our purpose, so I've been considering using a Linux system too.

[devilock76]

Originally I was thinking a rack shelf or drawer in my amp head case (mark bass sd700). Now I am thinking what the hell why not just get a laptop stage stand. Kind of like a sheet music stand but for the laptop/netbook.

That's actually a great idea. You could also use it to display notes, lyrics, whatever. And you can see what your fx are doing, which is always a good idea.
If you have a rack, you could also use a rack computer case, but that's nearly as expensive as a netbook.

I mean really in the end an M13 is cheaper. Has enough flexibility to do exactly what I want to do. But I would like to prove this concept.

Please do. My designated guitarist on my new project has some boss fx unit, but I think the sounds won't be flexible enough for our purpose, so I've been considering using a Linux system too.

The music stand style 1 is like $100, not bad considering the dual use you just mentioned. I think if I have everything pre tweaked and know my shortcut keys I can run rakarrack without the gui at the command line and maybe go no WM to do this.

The one thing I know, in the end the purpose built multiFX and a computer basically process the fx the same way. ONe offers more purpose built design, the other more flexibility with possible options and routing. To me the price on the netbook is what will my real world reliability be. Then again I have had great reliability with Linux in the multimedia world, but in home studio environments.

The offsetting factor to the reliability thing for me is that I have had MFX break and malfunction before. But being a programmer and sys admin I think I got a better chance of fixing a linux laptop on stage than I do a Boss pedal...

I think I will at minimum write up a whole how to on this thing. I might consider blogging on it. If this works I think I am going to find ways I can support the rakarrack project.

Ken

[devilock76]

Ok an update on progress.

First of all forget netbooks for something like this. A 1.6 ghz Atom will just not cut it. Well let me correct, it will and can, but not with more processor intensive effects which hurts why I messed with this in the first place. To have choice of more effects than a modest budget could allow in stomp boxes. Anything that does note tracking is pretty much out. Harmonizer, Synth Filter, stuff like that is just too much on the processor. You get Xruns out the wazoo and stuttering, even if you up the latency. The other problem though is my chosen interface does not get enough power over USB from the netbook to properly power the preamps. Now this could be an issue with this particular netbook, but still.

So I continued on with a more powerful full blown laptop in this experiment.

Next off, and truly this is a matter of tweaking. It will take some more for this not to be a big hassle particularly for setup. Tear down should be no big deal but setup. Well that is another matter.

Next off. Granted there would be some tweaking to do. I found I was very happy with the tone of the bass through the headphones but when it translated to the amp. Well that was another matter. I definitely need to work on this more to figure out the right combo. However at the amp it was a great deal of tone suck as I A/B/C'd bass direct to amp, bass through gt-6b to amp, bass to computer to amp.

Rackarraks tuner is useless. At least it is for bass. For some reason Lingot crashes on me at least it does when using Jack. That is a deal breaker for this application. So the only usable tuner available is Guitarix. I like Guitarix. Better for more subtle effects than rackarrak but part of the problem with Guitarix is that it just does not have enough keyboard shortcuts to be stage usable without some type of midi control pedal.

And of course I am starting to debate how much I use FX on stage anyway. Truth is 80% of the bands I have ever played with in a night I maybe used FX on 2 or 3 songs out of 40 plus in a night. And typically it was a bit of fuzz or bit of auto wah. That is about it. I am starting to revisit my sound so at the same time I am doing this experiment I am having debates. I am thinking of getting dedicated stomps to my OD/Fuzz solution (thinking bass blowtorch) and envelope filter. Then maybe using the computer solution as needed for adding spacey stuff for the rare times I need or use it.

I think this solution has a lot of merit composing and recording wise as many know. Stage wise I am yet to proof it as a combination of practical and great tone. I am not giving up on making this really work but I think some dedicated boxes are going to be my right now solution and I will work this up more to be a practical stage solution for a possible down the road setup.

Ken

[brummer]

part of the problem with Guitarix is that it just does not have enough keyboard shortcuts to be stage usable without some type of midi control pedal.

well, it's more designed to be used with a midi controller, but witch keyboard shortcuts do you miss, for what ?
Most stuff is also controllable with shortcuts.

As for a live session, presets comes in mind, you can switch them by simply press the number, if you didn't use more then 9 presets in one preset file. (Or `screen up / down` if they are more).

greats
brummer

[devilock76]

part of the problem with Guitarix is that it just does not have enough keyboard shortcuts to be stage usable without some type of midi control pedal.

well, it's more designed to be used with a midi controller, but witch keyboard shortcuts do you miss, for what ?
Most stuff is also controllable with shortcuts.

As for a live session, presets comes in mind, you can switch them by simply press the number, if you didn't use more then 9 presets in one preset file. (Or `screen up / down` if they are more).

greats
brummer

I would like to be able to turn FX modules in Guitarix on and off with a keypress like Rakarrack can do with the number pad.

Incidentally I am thinking of revisiting this setup with Rakarrack in a parrallel FX loop from my amp.

Ken

[Pablo]

Commenting on tuners, I always use "tuneit -jf" in a terminal with a big font.