Page 4 of 6

Re: Are there any big artists that use FOSS software?

Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:47 pm
by CrocoDuck
zoco wrote:But what i mean is, try to do some serious deep going administration on Linux.

This I never tried (luckily, it does not like the kind of stuff I would enjoy), but I believe you :wink:

By the way, if anybody is interested in knowing in which industries Linux and Open Source are a driving force, there is an interesting Red Hat Blog Post:
https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/25-thing ... n-source-0

Re: Are there any big artists that use FOSS software?

Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:52 pm
by jonetsu
zoco wrote: But what i mean is, try to do some serious deep going administration on Linux. Which can correspond with software from "the big" business partners and fits in the standards demanded by them. And then i mean serious administration, far beyond typing letters or invoicing. Big international business, so fitting at standards for customs where an oil tanker or or a ship full of cars can not even wait a minute because your consignment notes are unclear.


You're talking about office stuff. Here 'adminsitration' would rather mean 'sysadmin' eg. server, network administration. About which Linux excels.

Indeed, there's no office stuff for Linux. That's not the place for Linux. Leave that for Windows. Why insist ?

OTOH, in the USA at least, chances are that electricity the office stuff needs to be powered on and work is carried with some Linux help. I cannot name names, but let's just say that there's a good amount of utilities that has Linux running for the maintenance and status of their power lines. As well as a few train companies. Or next time you take the plane, pay attention to the xray machines. It's more than likely there's a penguin inside. And if you go downstairs of the airport where the fast paced parcel is scanned, you'll also very likely see penguins.

That's the place where Linux belongs. Not in the office. Comparison with office stuff is not a valid one.

It also means that Linux would be an excellent OS for audio work, if the audio software makers would support it at large.

Re: Are there any big artists that use FOSS software?

Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:54 pm
by CrocoDuck
jonetsu wrote: It does not mean FOSS. FOSS cannot compete on the ground of quality and features with dedicated 40hrs/week teams of developers earning their living with innovation, optimized algorithms, user interfaces, IMHO.


Whilst this is probably true for music software, I think it is best to clarify it is not true in general. It is not true, in general, that FOSS is only the work of amateurs.

For example, this is FOSS. And this originates from Google:
https://www.tensorflow.org/

And this is Open Source, but this from Amazon:
https://github.com/aws/sagemaker-python-sdk

There are huge corporations involved with all their manpower in OSS. This is not quite happening in Open Source Audio software, though. It seems to be all in fundamental research and technology really.

Re: Are there any big artists that use FOSS software?

Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:15 pm
by sysrqer
If we are comparing waves to calf then I think it begs the question of whether the tools are essentially the same and if it is just a case of cultural bias, which has been hinted at in this thread. Personally I think that there is a big difference these days. Look at mastering tools, what does linux have? Jamin? Compare that to Ozone and it is almost laughable. I feel like izotope are really pushing the boundaries to the point where you can mix and master something pretty well without even listening to the content. Certainly that's not an ideal that anyone would want but it's a point of comparison for where the technology is these days and foss is very far behind in many areas (not all though it has to be said). It is definitely not a limitation of foss or linux, we have Sononym natively on linux and it is very impressive and touches on this new era of removing a lot of the manual work and the old concept of a golden ear so it is at least possible for foss tools to be comparable. However, I suppose the incentive to spend the time implementing these technologies is not there for foss software in most cases and this is the crux of why there are very few big artists using using foss software, it is simply behind the times in most cases.

I was watching an unfa live stream the other day. He is, if not the most famous foss artist, certainly one of the most well known and influential, and ardour disappeared and lost some of what he had been working on. I have experienced the same thing many times and however good the open source tools are this is a serious issue and one that if it happens once for a professional is one time too many. When time is money that is not acceptable. Foss just isn't at the level it needs to be for professional use in a monolithic daw and high quality plugin world. Again, that's not to say that things like zynaddsubfx, helm, puredata etc are not perfectly capable and comparable.

Re: Are there any big artists that use FOSS software?

Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:45 pm
by jonetsu
CrocoDuck wrote:Whilst this is probably true for music software,


Which is still the main subject here.

CrocoDuck wrote:I think it is best to clarify it is not true in general. It is not true, in general, that FOSS is only the work of amateurs.


Who said so ? Just look at Ardour (to remain in the main subject).

Although have a non-amateur working weekends (and managing to have time for himself and his family somehow) on a project and compare that with someone of same skills paid 40hrs/week to work on a similar project in a competitive business environment and there will be a substantial difference. Both guys are excellent at what they do, but one does that to bring bread an butter to the table.

Re: Are there any big artists that use FOSS software?

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:22 am
by zoco
jonetsu wrote:You're talking about office stuff.

Most yes. And if your going into business office stuff is the first you need to start with. You can't run a business without office stuff.
Even if you don't have costumers you have to administrate your company and pay taxes, so your software has to communicate with the with tax authorities and administrative offices to get this done. No linux software for this.

Office stuff goes beyond the doors off the office, dripping into non-office stuff. Which without the right papers you can't get done.
Office stuff is needed for control and approval of goods, on all levels from raw material to customer.
Is needed for customs. For storage and distribution. For buying raw material and to sell at costumers.
And in the base for development of everything.
Big client, huge amounts off administration. Highly automated in which you have to fit yourself to join the game.
You big client even tells you how your invoice needs to look like or otherwise you simply won't get payed.

So you can have a neat factory or development office or whatever facilitating company, but if you can't full fill the requests big companies demand from you by contract, you won't work for them.
You need that software to communicate at all levels which is not available for linux so you are forced into using the other ones.

What i said, forced into using certain software which is not the linux ones.

That's in common life. I don't know were big music companies stand in this.
I could imagine they won't accept an MuseScore file as they can't import it?
For start they probably have the same problem as we do in return. They can't load many off the plugins we used. I can imagine they say that doesn't work as it should so "get Steinberg Cubase Pro immediately".

Re: Are there any big artists that use FOSS software?

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:29 pm
by jonetsu
zoco wrote:
jonetsu wrote:You're talking about office stuff.

Most yes. And if your going into business office stuff is the first you need to start with. You can't run a business without office stuff.

And again, that's not the place for Linux. Hence the comparison is not a good one.

OTOH, Linux makes forays into audio production. Major ones: Harrison, u-he, Bitwig, pianoteq, Renoise, Reaper, Tracktion. Then DiscoDSP, OvertoneDSP. Monoplugs, Loomer. Sorry if I forgot some. That establishes the start of a consideration that Linux could venture further. As I've explained my opinion about this at length in this thread I will not redo. In brief, the factor that would attract DAW and plugin makers to Linux, which is what's needed for Linux to grow in that field, would be based on the OS itself and considerations and concerns pro studios might have running their current OSes. As I mentioned recently, maybe they do not like to change computers when Microsoft decides it's time to do so. There can be a certain number of concerns.

Re: Are there any big artists that use FOSS software?

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:55 pm
by tavasti
zoco wrote:
jonetsu wrote:You're talking about office stuff.

Most yes. And if your going into business office stuff is the first you need to start with. You can't run a business without office stuff.

At least I was running own business 1999-2014 with Linux computers.

Re: Are there any big artists that use FOSS software?

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:54 am
by merlyn
The short answer seems to be 'no'. At the moment big and art don't seem to be compatible. Corporations don't look for talent, they want someone with a certain look and a willingness to cooperate. Once an 'artist' reaches this corporate level they are wired into the global cash nexus of deals, endorsements and sponsorship. I could imagine the situation where a big star is paid to be seen with an apple product.

Anyone who makes at least some money from music can write their equipment off against tax. At a certain point it would make sense to buy a mac to pay less tax. Most of the computers you see musicians with are macs. Rick Beato and Adam Neely, for example. Vadim Zavalishin a.k.a. Dr. Sync has a mac here, but if you watch the video he's running windows. Argh!

It's at the underground level that you might expect to see Linux. And I haven't. A lot of my friends are musicians and none of them use Linux. There is this idea that "I want to start working on music right away. I don't want to spend days setting it up". I had to laugh at my friend who bought Ableton with this attitude, then spent three days downloading the samples. The question may be better phrased "Has anyone who uses Linux got big?". Not yet, but someone is bound to. Then they'll buy a mac. :lol:

Re: Are there any big artists that use FOSS software?

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:36 am
by zoco
tavasti wrote:
zoco wrote:
jonetsu wrote:You're talking about office stuff.

Most yes. And if your going into business office stuff is the first you need to start with. You can't run a business without office stuff.

At least I was running own business 1999-2014 with Linux computers.

With all respect for small businesses which i highly respect, but this most likely was a 'small' business mostly working for private customers and smaller businesses demanding hardly anything more but good work. You probably never worked directly for a big companies or a big supplier of them.
Within the circles off bigger international worldwide companies working cross border and required to comply with strict regulations one is quickly forced into non linux software. And i think for music companies that's not different. That's what i tried to say as explanation about the forcing into non linux.

jonetsu wrote:
zoco wrote:
jonetsu wrote:You're talking about office stuff.

Most yes. And if your going into business office stuff is the first you need to start with. You can't run a business without office stuff.

And again, that's not the place for Linux. Hence the comparison is not a good one.

But this is common within all businesses so why not within music? If so then a good argument for the music business too? This topic is about big artists, and those are big business. :D
And i think i have a point there if i see that everyone talking about music production is talking about mac and windows so that seems the common situation which forces other ones into those too. Of which i already more than once said that i think that there must be studio's working on linux, but a big minority. Talk linux production among them and you won't be taken serious anymore.

Re: Are there any big artists that use FOSS software?

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:50 am
by tavasti
zoco wrote:
tavasti wrote:
zoco wrote:Most yes. And if your going into business office stuff is the first you need to start with. You can't run a business without office stuff.

At least I was running own business 1999-2014 with Linux computers.

With all respect for small businesses which i highly respect, but this most likely was a 'small' business mostly working for private customers and smaller businesses demanding hardly anything more but good work. You probably never worked directly for a big companies or a big supplier of them.

My most important customer has 42000 employees. They needed Linux & QNX specialist.

But yes, mostly you are still correct. Working with Linux may require some extra work on configurations, or doing something in special way. But so does working with Windows, and I was willing to put my energy to make things work in Linux instead of putting energy to stand frustration for windows.

Re: Are there any big artists that use FOSS software?

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:32 pm
by merlyn
'Forced' is a bit different from 'having no choice'. If you you had a choice you could be forced to choose one of the options. If you have no choice ... there's no choice.

If someone is given a work computer by the company they work for and it has windows installed then they have no choice but to use windows. They chose that job, and so weren't forced to use windows.

People who work in creative industries are often self employed, and so have a choice. On the Ardour forum I saw posts from a professional who uses Linux. He knew Linux already and didn't think it was suitable for his co-workers. Everyone who comes out of Berklee uses a mac, and that could be because apple have targeted Berklee as a customer they want, providing students with deals.

In the creative industries there is a choice, but apple have an astonishingly successful marketing campaign. :)

Re: Are there any big artists that use FOSS software?

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:52 pm
by Musicteacher
One must not forget that Apple used to have a real advantage in quality, stability and useability against windows. This seems to change:
https://www.heise.de/mac-and-i/meldung/ ... 03415.html

(article in german). Summary: Because of outdated, expensive products (Mac Pro not updated for several years now) Pro-Tools users switch in heaps to windows.

I don't think that the situation is as un-flexible as it was 10 or 15 years ago. 15 years ago, there was windows and some orchids.

Now we have Windows, Linux, Mac, IOS, Android, and people are much more willing to just choose what suits their needs instead of buying what everyone else buys.

So if there are real advantages of Linux over other OS in the audio - segment (reliability, realtime-capabilities) and more and more people are going to ask their favorite software-vendor for a linux version, then the market share is going to change, like it already has in areas where linux has a real advantage over other OS.

If the software, too, should be open source, ways of making money with that will have to be explored.

Re: Are there any big artists that use FOSS software?

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:22 pm
by merlyn
I found an interesting graph here

statistic_id218089_operating-systems-market-share-of-desktop-pcs-2013-2019-by-month.png

The nearly invisible grey bit is Linux. You can see that windows is going down, taken up by 'unknown', which, if you're optimistic, could be Linux.

Re: Are there any big artists that use FOSS software?

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:13 pm
by jonetsu
zoco wrote:
jonetsu wrote:And again, that's not the place for Linux. Hence the comparison is not a good one.

But this is common within all businesses so why not within music? If so then a good argument for the music business too? This topic is about big artists, and those are big business. :D


Simply because historically Linux is closer to electronics, to hardware, to low latency and real-time processing. This domain positioned Linux not as a 'word processing' and 'spreadsheet' champion, but rather in the infrastructure domains, closer to hardware. And we see today hundreds of commercial embedded examples where Linux runs. As such, audio production is also tied to hardware, to low latency, even real-time concerns.

As a comparison only much later in its existence did Windows start to cater to real-time concerns and embedded platforms.

zoco wrote:And i think i have a point there if i see that everyone talking about music production is talking about mac and windows so that seems the common situation which forces other ones into those too.


Having a point about the obvious is not the most amazing thing. I don't think anyone in this thread has refuted the fact that most DAWs and plugins are made for Windows and Mac. OTOH, we can observe that some popular audio products are being also made for Linux, Reaper being the most recent. Is this a slow trend ? If so, what would be the deciding factor, the customer feedback, that would make a successful company start to offer a Linux counterpart ? Is it just for fun ? Keep developers employed in low times ? Or are there some concerns expressed by customers ? If so, are these concerns about the audio products themselves or about the underlying OS running them ?