Do you guys have a hard time finding people to collaborate with?

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lukejknudsen
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Do you guys have a hard time finding people to collaborate with?

Postby lukejknudsen » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:53 pm

It can be really hard to find a rapper or singer to work with, and it just seems super clunky to send files and everything. I just wanted to hear if you guys had stories or advice

Death
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Re: Do you guys have a hard time finding people to collaborate with?

Postby Death » Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:49 am

I get people asking me to collab now & then - always on soundcloud for some reason. I don't actually collab often though. But yeh, collaborating is an awkward thing to do online. It definitely limits you a lot more. If you and the other person are lucky enough to be working with the same software, then it can be easier. Some DAW's even have online, realtime collaboration built in (I think bitwig studio might do). Good luck getting someone to switch DAW's though - that's a big ask.

The way I normally do it is just send stems back and forth and try and have a good idea of who's doing what parts of the song, though you don't have to limit things like that, it's just easier if you do. If it's just a singer you're working with, it's way easier! Just send them a rough mix of the song and get them to record vocals then send you their vocal stem back.

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wjl
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Re: Do you guys have a hard time finding people to collaborate with?

Postby wjl » Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:35 am

Try Wikiloops.com.

At this moment while I write this, its homepage says: "123,524 free homerecorded backing tracks online - recorded and remixed by 2,590 musicians from 192 countries!" (so in a way, like someone said jokingly a while ago, we're the biggest big band world-wide) :lol:

I'm a member since February last year, and I've decided to become a supporting (=paying) member in March after getting a free month of "premium" membership for helping out with some bug report.

Since last February I've made music for 5 albums, I'm included in several more from other artists, and if you're interested in what I am doing there just look up my profile:

https://www.wikiloops.com/artist/wjl.php

You can look up any other member the same way, you yourself decide what information you'd like to share there.

Of the 2,590 "active" musicians (meaning those who actually upload some stuff), you can find lots and lots of good and talented artists who would just love to hear what you're doing, and to collaborate together with you. The only rules are: be nice, and no cover songs due to legal reasons. The rest you can read on the page.

I always have a browser tab with that page open, and if I see some familiar name in the "Shoutbox", I greet them. And some I even have met in real life on last year's members' meeting which took place in a monastery in Steinfeld, Germany. As soon as this year's meeting might (hopefully) be announced, I'll book a place again for some half week of real life jamming.

So my advice is to go and have a look - for me this is great fun.

Edit: almost forgot: I also contributed in one of last year's video projects, so here you can actually see me jamming on some reggae tune with some of my friends:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWRjUlj35dk

Hope that helps,
and cheers,
Wolfgang
more about me on my blog

jonetsu
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Re: Do you guys have a hard time finding people to collaborate with?

Postby jonetsu » Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:29 pm

If I'm not mistaken, wikiloops reserves the right to use your music and sell it for any purpose.

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wjl
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Re: Do you guys have a hard time finding people to collaborate with?

Postby wjl » Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:44 pm

jonetsu wrote:If I'm not mistaken, wikiloops reserves the right to use your music and sell it for any purpose.


Sorry Al, but that's not right. See https://www.wikiloops.com/nutzungsbedingungen.php

Just as I couldn't sell anything where others are/were involved without asking them first (and compensating them in the process), Wikiloops can't and won't sell anything we make there.

Use it - sure, that right has to be granted - how else would you be able to collaborate?

Cheers,
Wolfgang
more about me on my blog

zoco
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Re: Do you guys have a hard time finding people to collaborate with?

Postby zoco » Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:33 pm

Yes i have.

jonetsu
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Re: Do you guys have a hard time finding people to collaborate with?

Postby jonetsu » Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:52 pm

wjl wrote:
jonetsu wrote:If I'm not mistaken, wikiloops reserves the right to use your music and sell it for any purpose.


See https://www.wikiloops.com/nutzungsbedingungen.php

Just as I couldn't sell anything where others are/were involved without asking them first (and compensating them in the process), Wikiloops can't and won't sell anything we make there.

Use it - sure, that right has to be granted - how else would you be able to collaborate?


That's not what section 4.1.3 of paragraph 6 stipulates:

[4.1.3] In case of inquiry from a third party of commercial use of audio content defined as public, the operator is entitled to grant the use for a fee, which he can determine individually and/or grant a sub-license. The individual user and/or the users will have a share in the royalties in accordance with § 7.

Wikiloops can seemingly take unilaterally the decision to sell the audio contents. There will be a share in the royalties, according to paragraph 7 section 2:

(2) If the sum of the credited profit-sharings of the user exceeds an amount of € 25 per calendar year, the disbursement will occur in accordance with § 8. The operator receives all license payment, if the profit-sharing remains under € 25 credited per year and user.

And in paragraph 8 section 1 we have:

On request of the user, the operator will disburse the profit-sharing at the latest to the 20th day according to the individual requirement, if the gratification amounts at least to € 25.

Which seemingly says that anything below € 24.99 remains with Wikiloops.

So if a company making flash ball guns used by police forces to take off eyes of demonstrators (France, 2018-2019, ongoing) likes your music for one of their trade adverts, Wikiloops can sell it to them.

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wjl
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Re: Do you guys have a hard time finding people to collaborate with?

Postby wjl » Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:33 pm

jonetsu wrote:Which seemingly says that anything below € 24.99 remains with Wikiloops.

So if a company making flash ball guns used by police forces to take off eyes of demonstrators (France, 2018-2019, ongoing) likes your music for one of their trade adverts, Wikiloops can sell it to them.


Well everything under 25€ would be totally fine with me. Richard runs transparency reports each year, so I know the books and how much of his own money (and time) goes into the project from which we all profit. As a supporter I pay more than that per year anyway. But you don't have to.

I know Richard, the founder of that project. He and his whole family (wife and parents) put a lot into it, so after looking at it for a while most of us are happy that we *can* support it. Selling music to some weirdos or big buck companies? That would be the end of Wikiloops, it's surely not what Richard would have in mind.

But yes, there have been discussions as I learned that went around the thought of making Wikiloops a real publisher. I can't say much about it because with less than a year of membership I'm still kind of a newbie.

Anyway. There are people who met there and then went to bandcamp or elsewhere to sell stuff - but as long as it's their own, that is fine. And if I decide to publish a video on Youtube which has Wikiloops contents, it's ok as long as it's not for commercial purposes and as long as I refer and put in a link back to the project, so we all profit from it.

I can't see anything wrong there. But then I don't want to, I'm not a lawyer, and I'm definitely not searching for weak holes or anything. Just glad that something like that exists. And it's a lot like open source, a whole lot of love and altruism goes into it.

But ok. No one is forcing anyone to join. Just a proposal. Just like the recommendation to use an operating system based on Linux or one of the BSD kernels, and the GNU tools.

Everything else should be discussed there IMHO, not here.

Cheers,
Wolfgang
more about me on my blog

jonetsu
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Re: Do you guys have a hard time finding people to collaborate with?

Postby jonetsu » Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:02 pm

wjl wrote:Everything else should be discussed there IMHO, not here.


You proposed something to everyone. I commented on that something, for everyone.

I'm not at all inclined in dragging the topic at length, especially since I have provided actual original text for the matter, while you provided the link to it.

The evidence is there for everyone, and it's up to everyone to decide.

Suggesting to suppress comments is another matter though and again I would not want to drag that since the evidence that such a response entails is rather pretty much self-describing.

Closing this parenthesis with music would be appropriate, from a great country of unified members:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADN0H6MREHA

:)

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wjl
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Re: Do you guys have a hard time finding people to collaborate with?

Postby wjl » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:37 pm

I won't ever understand your problem with that site Al - but instead of looking it up for free there, you decide to constantly talking it bad here - which it hasn't deserved IMHO.

This went into another sad example of it all. I thought Linux-friendly musicians had a more open mindset.

But to each his/her own.

Peace, or to quote SpocK live long and prosper.
Wolfgang
more about me on my blog

jonetsu
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Re: Do you guys have a hard time finding people to collaborate with?

Postby jonetsu » Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:26 pm

wjl wrote:... but instead of looking it up for free there, you decide to constantly talking it bad here - which it hasn't deserved IMHO.


Constantly talking it bad ? Don't be so hung up. You remember very well how enthusiast I was about this.

But I do have questions before putting my music on a web site. I had questions about how wikiloops works, you provided a link for everyone to read, I read that text, I posted extracts here with comments about how it seems it works, for everyone to read. Fair enough.

wjl wrote:This went into another sad example of it all. I thought Linux-friendly musicians had a more open mindset.


You seem to apply tags on groups. Or at least to be kind of sneakily calling upon a larger entity to get out of the problem caused by what seemingly is a way of functioning of your very transparent friend the Wikiloop: to be able to unilateraly (eg. w/o asking the author(s)) sell music to any customer asking for it.

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Re: Do you guys have a hard time finding people to collaborate with?

Postby wjl » Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:39 pm

jonetsu wrote:w/o asking the author(s)


There - you did it again. Can't you do without setting up things which aren't on that site, and in their rules? Nothing there works without asking authors.

Your music seems to be very precious if some nice collaboration with others can be prevented by an imaginary (cause it never happened) loss of 25 bucks a year. Without even thinking about that the management of small amounts maybe worth more than that - or what would you charge per hour for commercial jobs (which also never really happened through that platform)?

I don't want to discuss your things in a topic where someone else asked how to get collabs, and I showed him *one* possible way. You warned him with your points, fair enough. But that should be it, don't you agree?

Shaking my head about how this one went again. Seems that I really have to ignore you from now on. It's simply not worth my time to deal with people who will always assume the worst intentions in what others do, without even for a moment trying to see the world from their shoes. I call this being quite negative, sorry.

And - only as a side note - my "very transparent friend the Wikiloop" had to step down as (a quite underpaid) manager of his own site, and to take a job to be able to keep the site running, and the result was that last year for the first time ever the numbers EOY weren't negative. You could read all this and more on the site and in his transparency reports, yes - if you would like to. If you don't, ok - but then don't talk the site bad please, without even knowing anything about it.

And another side note: we - and I mean hundreds if not thousands of people around the globe - are rather thankful for what Richard provides, and we're happy that we can even support it (and thus, ourselves) a bit. The real commercial stuff happens elsewhere (a takeover offer through an Indonesian site who also owns a large part of Rolling Stone Mag was just declined lately).

Anyway, have a nice weekend.
And cheers,
Wolfgang
more about me on my blog

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Re: Do you guys have a hard time finding people to collaborate with?

Postby jonetsu » Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:42 pm

wjl wrote:
jonetsu wrote:w/o asking the author(s)


There - you did it again. Can't you do without setting up things which aren't on that site, and in their rules? Nothing there works without asking authors.


[4.1.3] In case of inquiry from a third party of commercial use of audio content defined as public, the operator is entitled to grant the use for a fee

The operator is entitled.

wjl wrote:Your music seems to be very precious if some nice collaboration with others can be prevented by an imaginary (cause it never happened) loss of 25 bucks a year.


It's certainly not a matter of money.

My precious music. Really ? Come on.

wjl wrote:I don't want to discuss your things in a topic where someone else asked how to get collabs, and I showed him *one* possible way. You warned him with your points, fair enough. But that should be it, don't you agree?


These are not my things. It's simply based on what I see in the text you provided.

And who is coming back reply after reply, each time beign a bit more personal for lack of any better argument ? I already mentioned that I do not want to drag this as all evidence was shown and any concerned people can make their own minds.

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Re: Do you guys have a hard time finding people to collaborate with?

Postby wjl » Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:03 am

jonetsu wrote:These are not my things. It's simply based on what I see in the text you provided.


Yes they are. You have a problem with that site and even capture someone else's thread with asking for help to start a nasty topic on it again and again. It's enough, simply stop it!

jonetsu wrote:And who is coming back reply after reply, each time beign a bit more personal for lack of any better argument ? I already mentioned that I do not want to drag this as all evidence was shown and any concerned people can make their own minds.


Who's coming back and dragging it? I was trying to be helpful, all you contribute here is negativity.

You should be ashamed. You seem to be a troll, and from now on I won't feed you anymore.

Bye.
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Re: Do you guys have a hard time finding people to collaborate with?

Postby tavasti » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:41 am

wjl wrote:This went into another sad example of it all. I thought Linux-friendly musicians had a more open mindset.

First of all, you are talking about one person, not everybody.

jonetsu wrote:


That's not what section 4.1.3 of paragraph 6 stipulates:

[4.1.3] In case of inquiry from a third party of commercial use of audio content defined as public, the operator is entitled to grant the use for a fee, which he can determine individually and/or grant a sub-license. The individual user and/or the users will have a share in the royalties in accordance with § 7.

Wikiloops can seemingly take unilaterally the decision to sell the audio contents.


And yes, it looks like jonetsu is right, that terms give Wikiloops right to sell your music without asking you. Another thing is that if they would do it, and even if they would, would it be any problem for example me?

What wjl talks about is how things are done in wikiloops now, but that is totally different thing. Terms define what can be done, and with all social media it is good to be aware what are terms.

Personally I don't think these terms are problem, and I might put something to wikiloops, or use something from there.
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