Modern or vintage?

[CrocoDuck]

Not sure if someone else also touched this point, but it also depends on what one defines as perfect.

For example, in my... songs? Well, in the stuff I upload on soundcloud, I try (with my poor skills) to forge the groove. It means that for each track I try to find the time instants when a note has to play in time with another note or slightly out of time. This is called "intention" (I think) and for each song I try to find the intention that make it sound naturally, as it sounds in my head. That is perfection for me and usually does not coincide with MIDI grid alignment (although depending on the genre it could happen). For example, I might want to have the guitar hitting slightly ahead of hi-hat:

time --------------------------------------->
Hi-hat (some note value) |---|---|---|
Guitar (same note value) ---|---|---|-

this will give the impression of speed and tension growing up. Or the other way around, with guitar lagging behind, giving the impression of relaxation and slowing down (a staple of reggae). I do this for each instrument and I am not happy until I am satisfied I got the sound it was playing in my head to at least some degree. One can become able to shift in time notes of very short fractions of time: just concentrate on how it has to sound like rather on the gap itself. If I am not able to do that by hand I will manipulate the record. For example, I am not good enough with bass... so most of the time I have to slide each note into the place were I wanted it to be.

So, in few words, perfection for me is when stuff is aligned so that it sounds exactly as the sound in my mind. This means that as an artist I am indeed attempting the creation of my concept rather than having random phenomenons taking my creative duty. In this regard, the computer is as good as an instrument as my hands and guitar, as it is a tool with which I *try* to obtain my goal.

[CrocoDuck]

I myselve mostly record 'by ear'. What i hear has to be good, and that is many times not the counting but notes slightly between them to get the song alive.

I disagree: where the notes fall in time relative to each other is one of the most influential things in what your perceive as "good" by ear. I doesn't need to be accurate but it has to have some kind of "consistency". It is a mostly unconscious thing. With practice one can recognize and control which kind of time artefact yields to what and use it.

When recording i play on what i hear and not on what i see on the screen, and with editing that's the same.

Yeah maybe it sounded like I align visually (probably because of the example), but I actually do the same: I shift in time until the ear gives me green flag. It could be that I just record a new take trying to have it sound slightly different or by moving the track slightly until profit. Usually a combination of the two. I just really focus on trying to make what is in my brain alive and I found that timing pays a huge role.

[CrocoDuck]

You understand what i'm trying to say?

Absolutely. I think I have expressed few of my concepts in a not very clear way. We are pretty much saying the very same thing, but with one difference. I like to choose were the note will be instead of let it happen. That's it. Of course, I will allow the jitter of my nervous system to place it around where I want it to be with some small tolerance, but I want to be in charge of specifying the position.

With consistency I don't mean all slightly anticipated or all slightly delayed. It could be the first perfectly on time, the second slightly off... any kind of pattern. I just want to choose that pattern, because I know that for each instrument there is a pattern that makes the song flow as I feel it should. On top of this pattern some "human jitter" can be allowed, as long as it is not disruptive of the intention (which, again, is the total effect deriving by the superposition of all the patterns). What the human ear likes most is "dirty regularity".

I think this is a good example of what I try to do.

Oh by the way, I don't necessarily think of forcing every single beat into position. Usually, few key beats per bar are enough.

[CrocoDuck]

And i think thats harder to do with modern digital music than with old times instruments. I think it's hard or even impossible to play dirty on a pianoroll.
Exact where i was courious about how everybody uses that and how, or not. My topic question.

Actually there seems there isn't too much of a difference to me. Manipulation of records was very hard and inconvenient before when using magnetic tapes, but it could be done with some time consuming techniques. That is why it is very unusual in old records. Today it is very easy with digitally stored data, but you can instruct your sequencer to not quantize the MIDI record. This way, when you record with the MIDI controller, the note will be placed where you fingers trigger it, not at the closest quantization point. Or, like I do most of the time, you can record the audio output of a synth in an Ardour audio track. By doing that it is just like recording an analog synth as long as humanization is concerned.

[sysrqer]

And i think thats harder to do with modern digital music than with old times instruments. I think it's hard or even impossible to play dirty on a pianoroll.

I think you have a very fixed and rigid idea of what modern music is and how it sounds.
Watch this guy write his 100% digital and modern drums on his very modern equipment
https://youtu.be/kOx2rbcfTMs

[sysrqer]

This guy uses analog music and play's it analog (himself) too. Therefore his music doesn't sound totaly automated and computerized. I'm sure his tones are not exact on the spot.

But that's my point, it is completely computerized and modern in every aspect. There's very little commercial or popular music which is rigid on a quantized grid, even stuff like psytrance has groove and swing.

But this is what i main with modern made.

I would argue that that is badly made, not modern made. All the same (and more) techniques as the guy used in my video could have been used on that. I admit it would be a challenge to make it sound like a real orchestra but it could sound better than that given the right treatment and attention to detail.
Honestly, I don't really understand your definitions. It seems like you are just asking if music should be quantized or not?

[mendo]

Watch this guy write his 100% digital and modern drums on his very modern equipment
https://youtu.be/kOx2rbcfTMs

Thanks for pointing me to this very nice video and the Rhythm Roulette series.

==> Do you know with FOSS software allows a similar work flow as used by Sto Elliot in the video?
--> Record, slice, arrange all in one go?

Interesting, 50% of the beatmaters in the series still seem to use the old Akai standalone MPC samplers. and they are quite fast showing good results.

Thanks in advance.

[sysrqer]

Thanks for pointing me to this very nice video and the Rhythm Roulette series.

No problem, I always find them inspiring in so many ways from finding source material to the speed you can work at when you know your set up.

==> Do you know with FOSS software allows a similar work flow as used by Sto Elliot in the video?
--> Record, slice, arrange all in one go?

Unfortunately, no I don't know of anything that can do it like this. I think renoise and bitwig would be capable but I can't think of anything FOSS that comes with this kind flow. Maybe you could set something up with ardour's new lua capabilities if you know lua but somehow I still thing it would fall far short. I know the new version of fabla had some interesting features moving is this direction but I'm not sure how close it is to finished. There's Shuriken Beat Slicer but I don't know what it is capable of. I dare say if you have the ability then something could be made in pure data or supercollider.

Interesting, 50% of the beatmaters in the series still seem to use the old Akai standalone MPC samplers. and they are quite fast showing good results.

Yes, it is interesting that they use those still. The other popular choice is Maschine, I didn't know it had taken to this extent until watching the series.