MOD Devices sponsors Linuxmusicians.com

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Babarosa
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Re: MOD Devices sponsors Linuxmusicians.com

Postby Babarosa » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:22 am

I'm feeling pretty bad.


Please do not.
From my point of view you do not have to regret anything and do not let it get you down.

I send you heartwarming greetings from Salzburg, birthtown of Mozart!
Michael

merlyn
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Re: MOD Devices sponsors Linuxmusicians.com

Postby merlyn » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:56 pm

@raboof Well done in succeeding in your aim of ensuring the continued existence of this forum. There is no reason to feel bad. As you pointed out you made your intention clear in a series of posts about the costs of keeping this forum online. Any users who had strong opinions on sponsorship had the opportunity to raise objections then.

@falkTX Please don't go. Your posts here have helped me set up Linux for audio more than any other source. Is there a compromise that can be worked out?

I was thinking : "What exactly is the problem?"

Say, instead of the MOD devices logo in the lower right hand corner it was the Linux Foundation logo. Would that seem the same? I think not. The Linux Foundation logo would seem more like an endorsement than an advert.

So the problem is the encroachment of the commercial world into Linux audio. The world of profit, of shareholders and of advertising. Well, that is happening. Linux is growing into the commercial world with products like MOD Duo, and the commercial world is growing into Linux with Reaper, Bitwig and Harrison Mixbus.

falkTX you are in a position to shape and influence how these two worlds interact.

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Re: MOD Devices sponsors Linuxmusicians.com

Postby magicalex » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:10 pm

raboof wrote:I'm feeling pretty bad.


I'm sorry to hear that. I can understand how disappointed you must be. Please don't 'rm -rf' the whole thing. Do whatever you think is the right thing to do.
My name is Sandy and I sing songs: SandySingsSongs.com

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Re: MOD Devices sponsors Linuxmusicians.com

Postby Lyberta » Sat Oct 13, 2018 1:56 pm

merlyn wrote:So the problem is the encroachment of the commercial world into Linux audio. The world of profit, of shareholders and of advertising. Well, that is happening. Linux is growing into the commercial world with products like MOD Duo, and the commercial world is growing into Linux with Reaper, Bitwig and Harrison Mixbus.


So I guess it is time to abandon Linux then? Too bad I don't see any viable candidates right now. Can't escape from a submarine.

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khz
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Re: MOD Devices sponsors Linuxmusicians.com

Postby khz » Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:32 pm

Change is natural and absolutely necessary. Similar to life. Comfortable is different. Rather laborious. ;-)
GNU/Linux functions through constructive, critical, benevolent, ... Discussion. Building on this, we can (and should) find a way together. In all subject areas, also in the future.
This is always necessary, that's the good thing about GNU/Linux.
Personally, I think we should stay independent.
:peace:
FZ - Does humor belongs in Music?
GNU/LINUX@AUDIO ~ /Wiki $ Howto.Info && GNU/Linux Debian installing >> Linux Audio Workstation LAW
    I don't care about the freedom of speech because I have nothing to say.

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Re: MOD Devices sponsors Linuxmusicians.com

Postby asbak » Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:28 am

raboof,

I realise it's not much comfort to hear this now, and that running a forum such as this is for the most part a thankless task, but don't take things too personally. That's when it starts dragging you down.

The objective interpretation of the situation is that:

- Websites & forums cost time, effort and money to maintain
- It cannot be expected that one or a very small handful of people must be responsible for nearly all the work & costs
- It is very difficult to please everyone. Since such a thing is impossible, there is no point even trying. Better to take the long view and to ignore most of the critics
- The long view and primary directive must always be about protecting and acting in the best interests of the community
- Advertising is a slippery slope, that is an unfortunate truth
- Doing things the right way in the Linux spirit means avoiding commercial licenses & agreements and arrangements as much as possible, unless the idea were to commercialise a product based on Open Source code
- Perhaps one compromise (members will need to point out where they stand on this?), is to make one subforum for commercial activity and to confine all advertising & vendor promotion in there, and to clearly mark the subforum as a commercial section.

If that's also not acceptable to members then just provide a breakdown of hosting cost estimates and as a number of members have already indicated, they'll be willing to contribute toward the bills.

It's highly unlikely that there will be much financial reward for time & effort spent on a forum such as this, that's the reality.

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Re: MOD Devices sponsors Linuxmusicians.com

Postby Baggypants » Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:15 pm

I have nothing against the idea of sponsorship, I work for an organisation that sponsors a goodly number of various charities and communities. If MOD Devices want to support a community, well it's their money, they're being generous and that's fine. But as with most things on the internet, there is a technical argument which is usually pretty easy, but also a community argument which tends to be harder and so people focus on the technical one. Whenever your dealing with money (especially amongst friends) I feel it's worth working to a framework, such as this one:

http://tobaccopolicycenter.org/wp-conte ... 11/177.pdf
Considerations in Evaluating a Proposed Relationship
Fundamental questions to ask before entering a relationship include:

Does the proposed activity and/or the proposed relationship promote the mission and values of our organization?

Will the relationship promote or enhance activities or organizations whose goals are inconsistent with the mission and values of our organization?

Will the relationship maintain our organization’s reputation for objectivity, independence, integrity, credibility, social responsibility and accountability?


This is just the first one I found and I think it's not too bad. I think if you asked the people who are unhappy exactly why they are unhappy with the sponsorship they'd probably tell you they're worried about the integrity.

If we, as a community, can agree on a framework, and you can work through such a framework with such goodies as "Does the proposed partner expect that a relationship with us will help secure our support or our silence on activities or issues on which we do not agree?" And assure us that the sponsor agrees to those terms, then I'd be even happier.

From a technical delivering-ads point of view I'm quite happy. I ask from any website that sponsorship should be hosted by the same server as the site I'm visiting (Which it appears to be) and to prevent the ability of the sponsor to track or otherwise data mine the members of the forum (which also appears to be the case) and also make sure it's not obnoxiously obtrusive (which you have).

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Re: MOD Devices sponsors Linuxmusicians.com

Postby glowrak guy » Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:56 pm

CrocoDuck wrote:Could it be a solution to have the ad displaying only in the Marketplace section?

Not all ads are created equal. A rotating series of ads depicting all
the MOD can do, would be good use of all that empty space on the main page.
MOD has few if any equivalents in the win/mac cultures, especially
in the $500 price range. It would also advertise the flexibility, diversity,
and level of technical expertise in the linux community.
This secondary communication will be valuable to developers,
as will be the ad revenue to this forum.

Anyone can turn images off, or use an add blocker,
if pics and text about a great linux hardware product
put them on the verge of a coronary disaster.
Cheers

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Re: MOD Devices sponsors Linuxmusicians.com

Postby Gianfranco » Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:52 am

Hi everyone

Gianfranco, from MOD Devices here.

I've been following this topic since the initial announcement and I did not want to participate in the discussion because, in my eyes, any form of influence from our side would constitute the very reason why people advocate against the sponsorship.

But as it seems, the discussion has steered from "why or why not the forum should be sponsored" to "why MOD Devices should not be the sponsor" and, in this process, a handful of imprecise information - to say the least - has been said about us and the sponsorship.

Because of that, I consider acceptable to write some words of clarification. If not for my company's defence, at the very least to contribute for a meaningful discussion.

First and foremost: we were approached by the forum admin with the sponsoring offer. Some people here are basing they argument as if it had happened the other way round.

It is not part of our activities to go around the web scraping for every Linux related website or forum trying to throw some money in exchange of publicity.

Second: This is a sponsorship and not an advertisement. There are not paid clicks, SEO links or any sort of tracking whatsoever.

Furthermore, as I have been constantly repeating since my first interactions with the Linux Audio Community, we DO NOT see the Linux Audio people as our target audience and thus, we DO NOT aim to sell units to its members. What we aim with this sponsorship is to strengthen the ties with the developers/hackers/makers communities in order to be able to offer better and more interesting products to the general public. Products like Zynthian or Blokas.io cater much more to the Linux Audio users than we do. And they use our software, BTW.

Third: contributions to Linux Audio

I am quite astounded to read that we have not contributed to the Linux Audio or the LV2 communities. Apart from our devices firmware and some internal tools, all our software - and even some hardware - is open-source.

There are 62 open repositories in our Github account. Here are some pieces of software I consider important to mention:

- an LV2 host that can be controlled via a web socket.
- a server application that provides remote GUIs for headless systems
- and LV2 extension defining HTML plugin interfaces
- an SDK to easily create, validate and publish HTML interfaces of LV2 plugins
- hundreds of interfaces for existing LV2 plugins
- ports of many LADSPA/DSSI plugins to LV2
- a handful of LV2 audio plugins, from distortions to complex pitch shifters.
- an LV2 plugin stress-testing tool
- a plugin cross-compilation toolchain for ARM targets
- an open protocol - ControlChain - for hardware control of LV2 plugins
- an Arduino Library for ControlChain
- the hardware design files for a ControlChain Arduino shield
- a complete design - electronic hardware + firmware - for an external ControlChain controller

If all that does not constitute a contribution I find it hard to grasp what a "meaningful contribution" actually is.

Fourth and last, but certainly not least, the MOD Labs initiative

Some people seem to purposely make an effort to misunderstand what is the MOD Labs in order to trash our image.

As I have mentioned before in this text, our main audience is much broader and less tech savvy than the Linux Audio commuity. We have continuosly constrained the product in order to better fit these broader audiences and this have generated some clashes with the more techy communities.

What we want to do with the MOD Labs is to provide a complete space dedicated to the developers/hackers/makers communities and we will provide a space with less rules and constraints where developers will be able to publish and share without our intervention.

We hope that by doing this we are able to foster innovation and creativity inside a community mindset. These resources are to be offered in a 100% open way, with minimal rules and maximum anonymity.

Our origins are rooted in the developers communities and I firmly believe that MOD Labs will give birth to many ideas that might turn into parts of our business. For those cases we wish to collaborate with developers who are willing to do so and here is where NDAs will kick in.

It is not about closing code and shifting towards proprietary software, but simply to keep some secrecy around information that the company has not disclosed yet.

Working in secrecy before going public is very different than adopting proprietary software. I know for a fact that many Open Source developers keep their work private up to a point where they decide to make it public and I wonder why should it be different for us.

I have a hard time to understand where is the problem in this and where does this hurt the open source communities.

I will end my argumentation here as I believe I've been too long already.

Before finishing, I'd just like to say that when we accepted the sponsorship offer from the forum admins, I never thought that such reactions would eclode. I have nothing but good regards to the Linux Audio community and its beloved members and it has never been our intention to create any sort of problem.

We have already made clear to the admins that we're 100% OK with any decision that they take and no hard feelings will emerge independently of the path taken.

Personally, the amount of grudge and bickering that some have put on the table here is much more painful than any financial damage we might take.

Wish you guys only the best

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Re: MOD Devices sponsors Linuxmusicians.com

Postby fundamental » Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:09 pm

Gianfranco wrote:What we want to do with the MOD Labs is to provide a complete space dedicated to the developers/hackers/makers communities


Just out of curiosity what do you mean by "space" here? Is this referring to a physical space for interaction with new hardware or primarily a different set of discussion avenues with MOD core members? I tried to look it up when this topic first appeared, though either info was more sparse on the mod website than expected or I was looking in the wrong places.


In regards to the primary topic, I don't consider sponsorship acknowledgement via a logo+link a advertisement, so that part of the sponsorship seemed just fine to me.
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Re: MOD Devices sponsors Linuxmusicians.com

Postby briandc » Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:14 pm

I'm happy to chip in as well. :)

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Re: MOD Devices sponsors Linuxmusicians.com

Postby folderol » Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:03 pm

Hi Gian,

Thanks for clarifying things - although it's regrettable that you needed to.

I don't suppose you'll get any apology from the critics, but some of us recognise what you do for the community.
Oh, and a few of us promote the MOD when they can :lol:

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milk
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Re: MOD Devices sponsors Linuxmusicians.com

Postby milk » Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:13 pm

information asymmetry strikes again!

if only the general membership had had an on-going ambient awareness of the level of donations in relation to the level of server costs.

sponsorship is essentially advertising (no way around it, regardless of how "good" the company is) and this kind of thing has been a very spiky topic in FLOSS circles for multiple decades.

my preferred solution/suggestion/proposal would be an implementation of a site-wide graphical indicator of the contributions-to-costs ratio. this would engender understanding that might even lead to a steady monthly contribution from some folks (if this option is offered).

unfortunately the only off the shelf extension for phpBB that does this is a PayPal one, and i'm going to go out on a limb and assume that everyone reading already knows how horrific a service PayPal is to rely on.

or maybe my search-fu sucks? (or any competent, willing and available to help PHP coders out there?)
they/them (nb/gq/tg, ta)
wiki.thingsandstuff.org/Audio and related pages - a collection of mostly Linux and free links (OpenID auth for anti-spam, try DW)
Linux Digital Audio and Music Workstation Comparison Matrix - collaborative Google Sheet

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Re: MOD Devices sponsors Linuxmusicians.com

Postby tramp » Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:05 am

milk wrote:sponsorship is essentially advertising (no way around it, regardless of how "good" the company is) and this kind of thing has been a very spiky topic in FLOSS circles for multiple decades.


Really? Well, I showed already here the LAC page, you wont one more? Check out the linuxfoundation OSSEU page

Open Source Summit Europe (OSSEU) is the leading conference for developers, architects and other technologists – as well as open source community and industry leaders – to collaborate, share information, learn about the latest technologies and gain a competitive advantage by using innovative open solutions.


https://events.linuxfoundation.org/even ... gIopvD_BwE

just scroll to the bottom of the page to see all the sponsors, especial check out the DIAMOND ones. :lol:

one more?
https://opensource.org/sponsors

and
https://www.kernel.org/

. . . . . .
On the road again.

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milk
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Re: MOD Devices sponsors Linuxmusicians.com

Postby milk » Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:26 pm

i think there is a fair difference between a meat space conference and an online forum.

indeed, sometimes requests and compromises need to be made, but i don't think, in this case, that the request was made apparent enough. many sites use an up-front graphical notification of server cost contributions as a step between posting in a specific thread (without much context) and accepting advertising.

(aside; the Linux Foundation might not be a shining example of a community orientated venture (1, 2, 3), and regarding the OSI - there's a reason the term "open source" was minted as an alternative to "free software")
they/them (nb/gq/tg, ta)
wiki.thingsandstuff.org/Audio and related pages - a collection of mostly Linux and free links (OpenID auth for anti-spam, try DW)
Linux Digital Audio and Music Workstation Comparison Matrix - collaborative Google Sheet


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