Ardour vs Audacity with Guitarix and IRs

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gianbulls23
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Ardour vs Audacity with Guitarix and IRs

Postby gianbulls23 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:23 am

Hi all,

I'm facing a different result from Ardour respect Audacity, about recording electric guitar: those made on Ardour is boxxy and artificial.
Why? :roll:

The whole story is I'm trying to properly setup recording electric guitar with old Mesa Boogie tube amp and IRs, in GNU/Linux environment of course :D
A DAW would be better for the project, so Ardour was the choice.

Signal routing is:

Ibanez e-guitar -> Mesa tube head -> Suhr reactive load 8ohm -> Alesis io2 usb sound card -> Dell XPS laptop Ubuntu 18.04 LTS -> Qjackctl -> Guitarix 0.36.1-1 -> Convolver mono loading Ownhammer impulse responses 4x12 cabinet Mesa Boogie -> Convolver stereo loading another OH IR 4x12.

When I play live on this system the sound is absolutely in real time and amazing, heard by AKG K240 headphones. Never appreciated so well this chain at home before.

When I record on Ardour sounds is not good anymore, boxxy and artificial as said above. So I tried with Audacity: definitely better than Ardour, I can say next to live situation (just the amazing guitarix).

Samples:
https://soundcloud.com/user-36178041/sets/ir_test_ubuntu

Routing inside Jack is:

system capture -> gx head in -> gx head out -> gx fx in -> gx fx out -> ardour track to record -> system output

In case of Audacity gx fx selected as input and system as output

Thank you all GNU/Linux musicians :)

Gianpietro

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funkmuscle
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Re: Ardour vs Audacity with Guitarix and IRs

Postby funkmuscle » Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:52 am

That is weird. I connect from:
Guitar > Mooer Brown Sound preamp > Hotone CAB> Focusrite 2i2.
The Hotone does a microphone, Poweramp and cabinets simulator. I can load my own IR files on it.

No matter what I recorded it sounds exactly the same.
When I use Guitarix, I bypass everything and just connect my guitar to the sound interface and I get a really great sounding app that way too.

From how I'm interpreting what you're saying there, you're going from an amplifier(Boogie) into a load box back into an amplifier(Guitarix).
Since you using the load box you're capturing both the preamp and the power amp of that amplifier so once you've connected to your interface, you should just use Qjackctl or Cadence with its patchbay to Route to the IR loader. That's my other way when I just use the Mooer preamp with it's built-in IR cab simulator turned off.
I'm still wondering if because you're going from the amplifier to the load box into your interface and into the software amplifier if that's not causing that. As of how the different software records it, that's still a mystery.

gianbulls23
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Re: Ardour vs Audacity with Guitarix and IRs

Postby gianbulls23 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:58 pm

once you've connected to your interface, you should just use Qjackctl or Cadence with its patchbay to Route to the IR loader


I had not thought about it before. Another possibility to improve the whole sound aside the main issue :idea:
In fact I used Guitarix just as IR loader since I set null its preamp and gain, just the master volume at h11 to hear something :lol: .

I could try without GX but, if any, which IR loader (stand-alone?) do you suggest?

I used some IR loaders as plugin within Ardour but the best result has always been achieved with Ardour no plugin + GX convolvers.

Thanks

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funkmuscle
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Re: Ardour vs Audacity with Guitarix and IRs

Postby funkmuscle » Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:18 pm

gianbulls23 wrote:
once you've connected to your interface, you should just use Qjackctl or Cadence with its patchbay to Route to the IR loader


I had not thought about it before. Another possibility to improve the whole sound aside the main issue :idea:
In fact I used Guitarix just as IR loader since I set null its preamp and gain, just the master volume at h11 to hear something :lol: .

I could try without GX but, if any, which IR loader (stand-alone?) do you suggest?

I used some IR loaders as plugin within Ardour but the best result has always been achieved with Ardour no plugin + GX convolvers.

Thanks

Guitarix sounds great on it's own. I'd leave that as it's own amp.
for IR loader, install x42-plugins. it have some IR loaders made for cab sims

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Re: Ardour vs Audacity with Guitarix and IRs

Postby finotti » Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:01 pm

Indeed, I would not use Guitarix just as an IR loader! It's *great* for practicing and playing when you don't want to turn on the whole rig, but there are better tools if you just want an IR loader.

IR loaders: as funkmuscle says, x42's (http://libremusicproduction.com/tools/convolv2) should do just fine. LSP has one with more bells and whistles (http://lsp-plug.in/?page=manuals). Finally, there is the IR.lv2 (https://tomszilagyi.github.io/plugins/ir.lv2/).

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funkmuscle
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Re: Ardour vs Audacity with Guitarix and IRs

Postby funkmuscle » Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:26 pm

finotti wrote:Indeed, I would not use Guitarix just as an IR loader! It's *great* for practicing and playing when you don't want to turn on the whole rig, but there are better tools if you just want an IR loader.

IR loaders: as funkmuscle says, x42's (http://libremusicproduction.com/tools/convolv2) should do just fine. LSP has one with more bells and whistles (http://lsp-plug.in/?page=manuals). Finally, there is the IR.lv2 (https://tomszilagyi.github.io/plugins/ir.lv2/).

Yep LSP has a built-in EQ on there IR loader so you can really shape your tone. The ir.lv2 may create headaches. I've seen that on many forums and I've experienced it myself. It used to be my go-to for using I IR reverbs but it would crash whatever DAW I'd be using.
I was told on the Ardour forum not to use.

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Re: Ardour vs Audacity with Guitarix and IRs

Postby funkmuscle » Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:46 pm

You are correct when it comes to mic'ing up the speakers of a guitar cabinet and recording it but to about 90% of us, we live in apartments and condos and even houses that are not soundproof so cranking up an amplifier to get a decent sound out of the speakers so we have to turn to these options. That's why I now they are making Hardware units not only capturing the impulse response of a speaker cabinet but they're also adding the power tube section of the amplifiers and a modeling of the microphones. They are also capturing the room sort of like when recording a drum kit they are a couple of microphones there to pick up the room.
The Hotone CAB covers that all. In fact when I picked the pedal up, I did just a raw or according of it and send it 2 a fellow guitar player and also he's a professional studio engineer and the first thing he asked me was where did I go to record my guitar.
I asked him why he was asking and he said he would like to know what amplifier I was using because he knows I don't have a head in the cabinet anymore and when I told him I set up, he swore it was an amplifier being recorded in a professional studio.
That's a cheap little unit by the way compared to something like the company Two Notes sells.
By running the Mesa Boogie through the load box into and I are loader with ir cabinets loaded, just a bit of Reverb added to the mix can create a really nice room sound.

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Re: Ardour vs Audacity with Guitarix and IRs

Postby tavasti » Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:27 am

42low wrote:Pluging always misses room. Misses the natural aspects and speaker behaver.
Plugged in always sounds less good (more flat, less deep), which afterwards should be edited with room-plugins.

I in general mic the amp. Great sounds then.

That might be true if you have decent amp, decent mic and somehow decent room. With small room and small budget ('Only cheapest is good enough') I would not expect getting great sound.
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Re: Ardour vs Audacity with Guitarix and IRs

Postby gianbulls23 » Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:09 am

finotti wrote:IR loaders: as funkmuscle says, x42's (http://libremusicproduction.com/tools/convolv2) should do just fine. LSP has one with more bells and whistles (http://lsp-plug.in/?page=manuals). Finally, there is the IR.lv2 (https://tomszilagyi.github.io/plugins/ir.lv2/).


3 differents workarounds, fine!
So I guess a plugin host is needed to manage them, right?
Since Ardour is NOK (at the moment), Guitarix not suggested because of the presence of a real amp, which plugin host, if any, do you suggest to load any impulse response file (.wav)?
Maybe I could try another DAW like Qtractor in order to check quality sound both playing live and recording.

I found out a list here https://wiki.linuxaudio.org/apps/categories/lv2

Carla seems to not be able to load IRs, I've just tested yesterday and found out in other thread that this feature is not available yet.

I appreciate your help, thank you :)

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Re: Ardour vs Audacity with Guitarix and IRs

Postby magicalex » Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:54 am

You can load any of the convolver plugins mentioned into Carla and run them from there.
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Re: Ardour vs Audacity with Guitarix and IRs

Postby tavasti » Fri Aug 31, 2018 8:53 pm

42low wrote:
tavasti wrote:That might be true if you have decent amp, decent mic and somehow decent room. With small room and small budget ('Only cheapest is good enough') I would not expect getting great sound.

Not great, but good enough. A 15W amp in a 3x2,5 meter (10x8ft,) room already gives enough effect to have the benefit. You would be happily surpriced if you would try, i'm sure.
For amping an electric guitar no expensive mic is needed. A highly affordable 20kHz or 15kHz mic is enough. $25 new? About $10 for a used one? Bought me several of high quality and known brands (shure f.i.) for $10-15 incl cable :mrgreen:

I don't think watts are relevant to audio quality. Or maybe if you try to be Motörhead. Cheap amps are cheap. I have one cheap second hand, and nothing else, I can give it a try, but I bet my Digitech multieffect and audio interface are more to my taste.

42low wrote:Good quality recording gear to reach high quality productions doesn't have to cost huge piles off money if you are patient and stay alert. :wink: :wink: :wink:

https://www.recordingrevolution.com/how ... under-150/

42low wrote:BTW, do you think i have no neighbours? I do. I have to keep my 100W amp far at it's lowest volume (-s, because 2 on it) too. Can't turn it open either :? and if i would i roughly guess that about at least 40 houses (100 people?) would hear it :mrgreen:

I have also neighbors. Nearest 250 meters, and it is only forest dividing me from them. And they are 80 years, half deaf. I could play with any power (if not counting own family).

I like getting clear sound with multi effect (or guitarix), and fact that I can play any time except when family members are sleeping in room next to my office/studio. With amp, there might be more limiting factors. For example wife having telco meeting and me playing with amp would not work :-)
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Re: Ardour vs Audacity with Guitarix and IRs

Postby sadko4u » Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:07 pm

gianbulls23 wrote:I could try without GX but, if any, which IR loader (stand-alone?) do you suggest?

Thanks


LSP convolvers also may be executed as a standalone JACK applications. So you actually do not need any plugin host.
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Re: Ardour vs Audacity with Guitarix and IRs

Postby tavasti » Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:15 pm

42low wrote:

He's cheating. Look at the mic he uses. That's not in the budget. :mrgreen:

Did you actually watch the video? Mic is 44$ or something. And mic stand and pop filter were included to budget.
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Re: Ardour vs Audacity with Guitarix and IRs

Postby gianbulls23 » Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:23 pm

magicalex wrote:You can load any of the convolver plugins mentioned into Carla and run them from there.


No luck. As opposite to Guitarix, Carla seems not implementing the feature about loading wav file.
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Re: Ardour vs Audacity with Guitarix and IRs

Postby falkTX » Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:01 pm

gianbulls23 wrote:
magicalex wrote:You can load any of the convolver plugins mentioned into Carla and run them from there.


No luck. As opposite to Guitarix, Carla seems not implementing the feature about loading wav file.

Correct, this has one of the few lv2 features that carla does not implement yet


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