midi input type to use with ardour audio recordings

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baconature
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midi input type to use with ardour audio recordings

Post by baconature »

Hi out there in the linux world,

It has been a while since I've messaged here. I wish to add that I have finally had quite a lot of success after the years of struggle.

So now I find myself at a differing place in my process in learning to use the DAW. Finally I've found some stability in recording audio from microphones and other direct inputs using the Focusrite Scarlett 18i20. I have been using Ardour 3.5.308~dfsg-1 to capture this audio. I have also been using Ardour's midi to manually write out midi parts to create accompaniment, mostly bass tracks as a starting point.

In this process, though it is slow to write out using my method, (the piano roll - note by note) it is helpful. So I am at a point of trying to change the actual sound that these midi tracks output. It is my opinion that the output sound is less than satisfactory to my ear. Actually I think the system is not functioning adequately. I notice two problems, or what I believe to be problems. First, if I change what I believe to be representations of differing instruments, nothing actually changes with the output sound? I may not know what I am talking about other than by changing the setting, the output remains the same. The second issue is that notes fail to sustain to a reasonably desired duration.

For this, my method is:
In the GUI of Ardour, I create a new track, selecting the type to be MIDI (rather than Audio) its default is "Reasonable Synth," and the group is, "No Group." I have used both the default and I have also selected other options available. The result of these settings, regardless of the actual choice, provides an output that seems to resemble a bass, but its sound output is far from what I desire. If I change the settings, it seems to have no effect on the sound output at all.

Secondly, the sound output will not sustain through the duration of time equivalent to the input, if the note happens to request a sustain for time beyond maybe 1 second.

I still know very little about the language used by those who write the software. I am a simple musician, trying to present my music the way I understand and want it to sound.

I have been trying to put this system together for a long time and remain rather frustrated with it due to my ignorance about the computers inner workings, most likely. Well that and language.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. As always I am grateful for the assistance provided by the users of this site. They say ignorance is bliss, but I think for myself, it is more like a huge hindrance to my own progress.

For the sake of clarity, At this point in time I am using Ubuntu-Studio because it works on this machine where the other OS remains problematic.
Thanks
Tom ~ Idaho USA

UbuntuStudio 20.04, Intel i5 3.30GHz 6600, Asus Q170Mc MotherBoard, 32Gb ram

My Music
StudioDave
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Re: midi input type to use with ardour audio recordings

Post by StudioDave »

baconature wrote: In the GUI of Ardour, I create a new track, selecting the type to be MIDI (rather than Audio) its default is "Reasonable Synth," and the group is, "No Group." I have used both the default and I have also selected other options available. The result of these settings, regardless of the actual choice, provides an output that seems to resemble a bass, but its sound output is far from what I desire. If I change the settings, it seems to have no effect on the sound output at all.
Hi Tom,

Are you saying that even if you select a different synth the sound is the same ? That would be very strange. Or are you changing settings to the Reasonable Synth and not hearing changes ?

My first advice is to try a different synth, i.e. replace the instance of the Reasonable Synth with something else. Check your system repos for LV2 plugins, you should be able to find some synths in that format.
Secondly, the sound output will not sustain through the duration of time equivalent to the input, if the note happens to request a sustain for time beyond maybe 1 second.
That sounds like a bug. Your version of Ardour is a little out-of-date, maybe updating will help ?

It's also possible that the synth patch is faulty.

I suggest you consider using KXStudio if at all possible. If you're already comfortable with Ubuntu you'll feel right at home. The KXStudio repos are filled with an excellent selection of sound and music software, it's really one of the best distros out there. AVLinux, MusiX, and Planet CCRMA are alternatives, but they aren't based on Ubuntu.

Best,

dp
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Re: midi input type to use with ardour audio recordings

Post by paul »

OP, use Ardour 4. It works so, so, so, so much better!
Keep on rocking in the free world!
baconature
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Re: midi input type to use with ardour audio recordings

Post by baconature »

StudioDave,

Thanks for the reply. I didn't get an email that there were replies to my thread, an oddity, so I will have to review my profile setting I guess. Regardless, answers. Yes answers the first two questions. I have changed the synth from Reasonable Synth to many of the other options, no change occurs to the output. As to changes of the actual Reasonable Synth, there are but two options seemingly available, they are "Midi" and "General Midi". I have also changed those to find no output changes audible to me.

Now I am really unclear on the question of LV2 plugins. In looking through Synaptic, I find nothing termed as LV2 packages, specifically. There are things available like lv2core, with a description that states "LV2 audio plugin specification (dummy package)" but being logical I don't want something that is called dummy. It goes against my nature to think that I want anything dummy. Of course these are mere names and descriptions that mean absolutely nothing to me. And since this is also termed as "specification" I regard that as meaning that this package is actually a technical description of the package. I don't want a description, I want a sound. I am sure that this is simply my interpretation of semantics being problematic. I have a very difficult time with language in general, when it goes into the realm of technical stuff, it is near all meaningless. I am reluctant to check all the items that appear when I type "lv2" into the Quick filter in the Synaptic GUI. Now if the question were pertinent to the life cycle of a bird or a fish, there I can understand the language, when it comes to this computer stuff I remain very ignorant.

I am unable to obtain a newer version of Ardour in Synaptic. I fully have no explanation of why, but it doesn't show up in the repository. I don't do very much through the command line and have only very limited knowledge there in. So if it isn't in Synaptic and it isn't, I am rather stuck.

Now as to KXStudio, I have tried to use it several times over the years but it doesn't function correctly with my hardware for some reason that I have not been able to figure out. I only recently discovered that UbuntuStudio will work without too much technical crap causing conflict and frustration to the process for an ignorant soul such as myself. I want to agree with you about kxstudio from my attempts in its use in the past, but it simply doesn't cooperate with my hardware or the "out of the box" install. It requires a knowledge that I don't possess to make it operate correctly with this system and I can't go out an buy a new computer to facilitate it, in spite of a desire to do just that.
Tom ~ Idaho USA

UbuntuStudio 20.04, Intel i5 3.30GHz 6600, Asus Q170Mc MotherBoard, 32Gb ram

My Music
baconature
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Re: midi input type to use with ardour audio recordings

Post by baconature »

So I spent most of my day watching the little iconic wheels spinning as I again tried a fresh install of KXstudio. Since my last attempt at getting a xubuntu running with kxstudio repositories added was also a failure for what I think is likely the same issue, why not try again. This is I think my 4th attempt at running kxstudio, will see what happens and let you know sometime, after I know. This proves that having a multi boot system has some benefit.

Of course the first thing that the fresh install did was lock up, sigh! Not a good sign. It may yet need more updates, that also failed for some reason, maybe the source server was being taxed by demand or something.

Onward and upward. Really I'd much rather be playing music than screwing with the computer, AGAIN!

Thanks folks
Tom ~ Idaho USA

UbuntuStudio 20.04, Intel i5 3.30GHz 6600, Asus Q170Mc MotherBoard, 32Gb ram

My Music
StudioDave
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Re: midi input type to use with ardour audio recordings

Post by StudioDave »

baconature wrote:So I spent most of my day watching the little iconic wheels spinning as I again tried a fresh install of KXstudio.
Sorry for the obvious question, but have you contacted falkTX here regarding your issues with KXStudio ? He's the distro maintainer, if anyone can help you with KXStudio he's the man.

Meanwhile I'll try your scenario today. What I'll do:

1. Open Ardour4
2. Add some audio
3. Create a MIDI track
4. Assign a synth to that track
5. Play all tracks
6. Profit !

Well, I don't know about step 6, but 1 through 5 shouldn't be impossible. I'll report my findings later.

Best,

dp
StudioDave
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Re: midi input type to use with ardour audio recordings

Post by StudioDave »

StudioDave wrote: 1. Open Ardour4
No problems.
2. Add some audio
No problem. I added a drum loop WAV.
3. Create a MIDI track
Done, then I added some notes. I really don't get along with Ardour's idea of MIDI entry - or I'm not getting it at all - but I managed to put some notes in the track.
4. Assign a synth to that track
Either I missed it or the Reasonable Synth no longer exists in A4. I added an instance of the Yoshimi LV2 plugin synthesizer instead.
5. Play all tracks
And it all worked. I changed patches on the synth during playback and altered note lengths. No problems.

Check the Ubuntu repos for the Yoshimi LV2 plugin. I assume you know about this page :

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Ubunt ... reparation

It refers to Yoshimi and provides instructions for retrieving it :

Code: Select all

sudo apt-get install yoshimi
Best,

dp
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Re: midi input type to use with ardour audio recordings

Post by baconature »

Sorry for the tardiness in responding. A death in the family changed focus in the life and times. That change will likely linger for a short time yet.

I have not opened the newly installed OS KXStudio since adding some required security software post install (firewall and a couple of other functionality preferences). Previously I have consulted with falkTX, but the issue is one I believe to be beyond his purview. It is now my belief the issue that came up, causing my discard of KXstudio in the past, has to do with my video card's driver, or the problems related to it. That problem may have been solved recently, but I remain unsure of that.

Needless to say I have not tested out the new OS install to see if the issue that caused this thread has changed. I will postpone further testing at least until tomorrow (Sunday May 24th) but maybe longer. I will tell the results when I have seen them.

Again, Thanks for your consideration of this issue. I will test it out and see soon enough.
Tom ~ Idaho USA

UbuntuStudio 20.04, Intel i5 3.30GHz 6600, Asus Q170Mc MotherBoard, 32Gb ram

My Music
StudioDave
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Re: midi input type to use with ardour audio recordings

Post by StudioDave »

baconature wrote:Sorry for the tardiness in responding. A death in the family changed focus in the life and times. That change will likely linger for a short time yet.
My condolences to you & yours, I'm sure you're having a rough time. No fear, whenever you're ready to roll just let us know how you're doing.

Best,

dp
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Re: midi input type to use with ardour audio recordings

Post by baconature »

Back to it here. Thanks dp!
Recent observation in trying has been less than successful. It does seem however that the loading of KXStudio provided a stable platform. Previous attempts were always problematic. Other than that initial system lock-up that occurred before successfully loading the video card driver, I've had no further issues with that problem. Of course I have not actually spent enough time with this to be totally confident that my speculation about the video driver issue is actually completely resolved. Time in use will tell that one.

As to the initial problem as stated with this thread, I see nothing different using ardour 4. I do the same with the same results. I tried some of those available settings for the midi in Ardour, no changes. So I followed the example presented by Studio Dave, or tried to at least, finding a different result. I didn't have yoshimi installed, so I installed it through synaptic rather than using the command line (due to my lack of knowledge and unwillingness to blindly follow things that I don't fully understand). So upon completing an installation of yoshimi, I then went back to ardour, but there is no yoshimi listed in the menus for selecting midi. I rebooted then tried again, no changes. There is still no yoshimi available. The note duration is still truncated and the sound remains as I previously described.

I am off to the garden now, there is work to be done there in order to make the time window for having a successful season.

Thanks again, I will look at this again later today in all likelihood.

Turn your rhymes toward the better good!
Tom ~ Idaho USA

UbuntuStudio 20.04, Intel i5 3.30GHz 6600, Asus Q170Mc MotherBoard, 32Gb ram

My Music
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Re: midi input type to use with ardour audio recordings

Post by glowrak guy »

Install qtractor daw by synaptic.

Launch qjackctl and qtractor, and make connections in qjackctl.
In qtractor Tracks menu, choose Add Track
A two tabbed panel appears, choose either audio or midi track, (click midi to use yoshimi)
In the same panel, select the Plugins Tab
Click the 'Add' button on the right

In the Plugins panel that appears, in the upper right corner,
click the widget to choose between plugin types: any, lv2, ladspa, dssi, vst
choose lv2, and select yoshimi (or your choice) from the list.
(choose menu Track-->Track Properties 'track properties' menu item,
when you want to change plugins on the same track)

In yoshimi, in the Instruments menu, choose 'Show Banks',
and then pick a sound. This assumes you installed the yoshimi data file
in synaptic. At least you can make some tunes until the ardour gets sorted.
Cheers
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Re: midi input type to use with ardour audio recordings

Post by baconature »

I am trying to avoid using a multitude of individual pieces of software to accomplish my task. Thus I am hoping to use Ardour4, utilizing its functionality. It seems that it should work but like so many issues that come up for me with use of this type of software (FLOSS), with my limited ability to read and a total lack of education in computing, it is a hard road to walk down. Money (a personal lack there of) and a disdain for the Microsoft and Mac, get the money stance in business, has taken me away from the proprietary type of software I used to use, back in the days when I could work for a living.

I appreciate your comment and attempt to assist, glowrak guy. Yet as stated days ago, I am trying to get KXStudio going again :roll: . For me this has been problematic in the past yet, it now appears that the past issue with my hardware has been resolved. I have found qtractor very difficult to use in the past, and again I would really like to keep my working under the umbrella of fewer rather than more pieces of software. KXStudio doesn't have qjacktl, it uses Cadence (quite similar). But I have been using its ladish (I don't recall what its name is in the moment, it is quite comparable to Gladish) interface to minimize or fully eliminate a need to connect things up between the various interfaces.

And so I was trying to step through what Studio Dave suggested, finding it didn't produce the desired results that he seemed to accomplish. I didn't stick with it a long time yesterday only about 3 hours, then I said enough. I haven't booted to KXStudio today to try, and thought of another thing that might work. The garden thing is still sucking at my energy and shall likely predominate as today extends. It nears done (the planting phase) for now, but not quite, and the showers of rain have been interfering.

Onward and upward.
One, Two, Three, and Play!
Tom ~ Idaho USA

UbuntuStudio 20.04, Intel i5 3.30GHz 6600, Asus Q170Mc MotherBoard, 32Gb ram

My Music
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Re: midi input type to use with ardour audio recordings

Post by glowrak guy »

If you run carla and qjackctl, you will see that connections made
with qjackctl will show up in carla patchbay. In qjackctl,
you can't conveniently drag/drop elements, but for simple setups,
it's still very useful.

For someone used to the old qjackctl, and new to carla,
it can be helful to connect things in qjackctl, to quickly identify
the counterparts in carla, as the labeling is slightly different.
Cheers
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Re: midi input type to use with ardour audio recordings

Post by StudioDave »

Quick note to the OP:

You might not have installed the Yoshimi *plugin* which is probably something like yoshimi-lv2. I'm pretty sure KXStudio includes it in the repos, but you should contact falkTX on the KXStudio forum here for more information.

Best,

dp
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Re: midi input type to use with ardour audio recordings

Post by baconature »

As previously stated, I rarely use the command line due to not knowing what all the command code does. Further more because of this ignorance, I wish to avoid complications with double loading programs or failure to gain all dependency related files, causing additional untraceable (to me) system problems due to not knowing what all the codes available actually do. Thus I use synaptic to gain access to software.

In looking at synaptic, there is no listing for "lv2," while there are numerous listings that contain lv2 somewhere in the name, either a prefix or a suffix to it. Going down the list provided by falkTX, I found none of those items specifically listed in synaptic. It is not that I don't trust that falkTX has provided good information, I simply can't verify anything which that methodology of input can do prior to its implementation, or even after. Furthermore, in my look at synaptic while trying to find "lv2," of those numerous items that contain "lv2" within the listed names, many, though not all, of them are installed on this system. I reckon it is easy for those with training and an understanding in commands beside an understanding of all the acronyms used with conversations surrounding digital audio systems, rather than complete language, but I don't know either of those two things. I am ignorant, admittedly so, and I would like to know what I am doing, rather than blindly jumping into a fire because someone suggested it as the correct thing to do.


So there is nothing new with this issue on this computer. It remains the same, no flexibility in, or likely even correctness in the setup of the system that can facilitate audio output in using the midi portion of ardour4. I do now however have a semi-working version of KXStudio, something that I was previously unable to accomplish. Although this may be a better system for what I am attempting to accomplish, it doesn't provide what is required to fulfil the overall goal, producing quality recordings of my music. This is my goal as it has been since dropping out of the pay to play world of mac and microsuck all those years ago. The old windows 98 box still works, allowing use of that old cakewalk pro audio 9, but it can't actually facilitate my goal as good as what I know modern FLOSS (having nothing to do with cleaning my teeth) can do. I am a simple singer songwriter, not a tech wizard.
Tom ~ Idaho USA

UbuntuStudio 20.04, Intel i5 3.30GHz 6600, Asus Q170Mc MotherBoard, 32Gb ram

My Music
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